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Originally Posted by Tradycja
Am I alone in this belief here?

No, you are not.

Dn. Robert

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I don't know what you mean by "force of law". The statements regarding faith and morals in Unam Sanctam are infallible. Additionally, they are worded as a definition: "We declare, define...." etc. This is the same language of other Dogmatic definitions such as the Immaculate Conception.

Additionally, Pope Pius XII said in Mystici Corporis
"Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ's Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, Who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth, after His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is [b]the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same.[/b] "They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous errors who believe that they can accept Christ as the head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it." (Pope Pius XII, encyclical Mystici Corporis) [u][/u]

You see Pope Pius XII says that the successors of Boniface VIII "never ceased to repeat the same", clearly indicating that this is a matter of not only the extraordinary magisterium but the universal and ordinary magisterium.

This is not just a Roman issue. It is an issue for everyone. These are life and death matters and I think these considerations should be brought up when someone asks if they should become Orthodox or not.

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Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

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That is one of the problems in the Orthodox Church though is that they are not "One". What one particular national Church condemns as heresy another one might not have a problem with. Hence the disagreement over whether the "uncreated energies" are Dogma or not and the disagreements between the SCOBA Orthodox and the Old Calendrists.


First of all the Orthodox Church is "One." Her unity is expressed as a unity of communion, not of a single point of reference or to an individual see. Her un ity is reflective of that held throughout the Church in the first millenium. The members of the Orthodox Churches are welcome in each othr's parishes and they usually celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy together as well as other significant events surrounding the Mystery of God becoming man in the Person of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

As for the Orthodox Church having differing condemnations for heresy, please stick to concrete examples. Painting with a broad brush doesn't cut it. Unlike the Catholic Church where we often have to put up with all kinds of craziness, the Orthodox Church sees no problem--in fact considers it a duty--with/in challenging doctrinal and liturgical abuses within her communion.

The Orthodox Church is not much into defining every last point of the Mystery that is Christ and His ongoing work in the world. Unlike the West, she doesn't see the need to define every last thing, preferring to leave Mystery be Mystery and allowing theological opinions to be just that. So the theologumena concerning the Divine energies are still ongoing in their discussions.

As far as SCOBA and the Old Calendarists, if that were the only issue, there wouldn't be much disagreement. SCOBA members use both the Revised Julian and the Julian calendars and still consider each other canonical. Somehow I believe you haven't yet sought out information about the Orthodox Church or you would understand that the calendar issue is only the surface issue in these disputes among canonical and non-canonical bodies.

In Christ,

Bob

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I don't know what you mean by "force of law". The statements regarding faith and morals in Unam Sanctam are infallible. Additionally, they are worded as a definition: "We declare, define...." etc. This is the same language of other Dogmatic definitions such as the Immaculate Conception.

Additionally, Pope Pius XII said in Mystici Corporis . . .


Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I think you make the same mistake so many who think they are Latin traditionalists make. All of the statements and documents in the Church's history are now read through the prism of Vatican II and its declarations about the Eastern Churches. The Latin Church is no longer the center of the universe. She walks along in the pilgrimage to the Kingdom with the sister Churches. We are still working out what a communion of Churches should be and how it should function. But Catholic is no longer a synonym for the Latin Church or her approach to the Mystery.

In Christ,

BOB

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Why are you and others so opposed to these writings!
Afraid?
Stephanos I


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Why are you and others so opposed to these writings!
Afraid?
Um, really lousy scholarship combined with repetitions of empty polemics that do not advance the cause of Christian unity in the slightest. ignorance always frightens me.

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No, you are not.

More's the pity.

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This would be the same Pius XII who quietly did away with the temporal supremacy of the Pope, a cause near and dear to the heart of Boniface VIII--who would probably consider Pius XII a heretic for so doing?

Please, take your copies of Ott and Denziger to the nearest recycling bin, and deposit them directly.

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Walter:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I am sorry we've all gotten a bit off your topic question. Please don't be put off by the direction this has taken. We do respect your conscience and will try to get you some answers.

In the meantime, let's all go back and read the man's question and dilemna. These are the struggles we've all had at some point and we don't want to tramble on the man's conscience or put him into a spiritual tailspin.

Bob

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Originally Posted by StuartK
This would be the same Pius XII who quietly did away with the temporal supremacy of the Pope, a cause near and dear to the heart of Boniface VIII--who would probably consider Pius XII a heretic for so doing?

Please, take your copies of Ott and Denziger to the nearest recycling bin, and deposit them directly.

Perhaps we can continue the discussion somewhere else?

Anyway, I think you are confusing Dogma and discipline, how the Pope's temporal power is exercised is discipline so it is debatable. I agree that the Pope should not be micro-managing disciplinary aspects of the Eastern Churches as well.

Boniface VIII's statement about there being no remission of sins outside the Church is dogmatic.

The reason I bring this up is it seems to me the question should be raised when someone asks should they be Catholic or should they be Orthodox is "Where can salvation be found?" That is ultimately what it is all about. Both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church cannot be the True Church at the same time. If the Church is now divided then the promises of Our Lord have failed.

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Anyway, I think you are confusing Dogma and discipline, how the Pope's temporal power is exercised is discipline so it is debatable. I agree that the Pope should not be micro-managing disciplinary aspects of the Eastern Churches as well.

First, from the time of the Papal Decretals of Gregory VII until the mid-1950s, the power of the Pope over temporal rulers--to appoint and to depose them according to his own will--was indeed taught dogmatically and implemented dogmatically, though with decreasing effectiveness due to overuse and the inability of the Popes to enforce their decrees; it was last used by Pius V against Elizabeth Tudor, and the world yawned. Though never employed again, the Church upheld the principle and it remained on the books.

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Boniface VIII's statement about there being no remission of sins outside the Church is dogmatic.

Yet Boniface's understanding of what that meant--that one must be a full member of the Catholic Church in order for one to be saved--has been rejected by the Catholic Church and has been at least from the time of Pius IX (another one of those liberal heretics!). "Extra ecclesia nulla sallus" has been interpreted in a broader sense than is expressed in Unam Sanctem, last of all by the Second Vatican Council, which indicated that all those who are saved are saved through the Church, to which they are connected in some mystical manner. Boniface would have a cow.

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The reason I bring this up is it seems to me the question should be raised when someone asks should they be Catholic or should they be Orthodox is "Where can salvation be found?" That is ultimately what it is all about. Both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church cannot be the True Church at the same time. If the Church is now divided then the promises of Our Lord have failed.

In a series of documents beginning with Unitatas redintegratio down through Ut Unum Sint and the Balamand Declaration, the Catholic Church has recognized the Orthodox Churches as being true Churches and declared that they are fully sufficient for the salvation of their adherents. Since being Church is a bi-polar condition (i.e., one cannot be "a little bit" Church any more than one can be "a little bit" pregnant), the Catholic Church is conceding that the Orthodox Churches are also a part of the true Church of God. As the saying goes, the only thing preventing full communion is the absence of full communion.

From my perspective, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches constitute one Church tragically divided. Responsibility for the division rests on both sides; there is blame enough to go around. Both sides are equally wounded by the scandal of division; if the Orthodox Churches are diminished in any way by the absence of communion with the Church of Rome, so the Church of Rome is wounded by its lack of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

Communion will not be restored by demanding that one Church submit to the the authority of the other, but through a mutual recognition of their unity in faith, and only when the desire for true communion in the Holy Spirit transcends the desire to dominate.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]

Communion will not be restored by demanding that one Church submit to the the authority of the other, but through a mutual recognition of their unity in faith, and only when the desire for true communion in the Holy Spirit transcends the desire to dominate.

Well said and consistent with the direction the Orthodox-Catholic Dialouge, both in Europe and in the Americas, has been taking the past four decades.One of the members of the Dialouge observed that the problem when the last understanding is reached among the Churches will not be with the scholars, teachers and Bishops but with pious people who will have to learn to unburden themselves from the heavy cloak of history and misunderstanding.

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From my perspective, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches constitute one Church tragically divided. Responsibility for the division rests on both sides; there is blame enough to go around. Both sides are equally wounded by the scandal of division; if the Orthodox Churches are diminished in any way by the absence of communion with the Church of Rome, so the Church of Rome is wounded by its lack of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

Communion will not be restored by demanding that one Church submit to the the authority of the other, but through a mutual recognition of their unity in faith, and only when the desire for true communion in the Holy Spirit transcends the desire to dominate.


Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!
stuart:

Well put, well said, well done. I wish the search engine would bring up the threads about what communion is possible, quoting Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. He said that essentially all we can hope for is communion, not any sort of submission one to the other, most likely because of the centuries of mistrust and the attempts to force unity again that have had such tragic results.

I'd also pose for thought the liturgical abuses that have been posted here that have so disturbed so many of us and also our Orthodox brethren who have often wondered to us how such blasphemies can be tolerated. I remember one asking "where is the Council of Bishops?" only to be amazed that there was no such thing with authority to remove a brother bishop who tolerated such things within his territory. There won't ever be any communion as long as liturgical abuses are tolerated even once.

Bob

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Vladimir,

Why do you not want to join the Byzantine church?it really would be a good home for you.The Orthodox church would be happy to have you but please do what you feel your heart tells you God will at times give you so many options there is always a solution but this you must take to heart.If I can help you in anyway please send me a note.I will pray for you and in time my brother you will find your home this decision must be yours and yours alone.People are kind and will try to help but only the holy spirit will give you the wisdom as to where your home will be.May God only Bless you and remember it is you and you alone that will know where you belong.
+V.S.

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Vladimir,
If indeed you do choose Orthodoxy be very careful there are so many group that claim they are Orthodox and are not,The Ukrainian Orthodox church is one example there are so so many that claim they are U.A.O.C. and have made so many problems for Ukrainians so just beware!

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