www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Preventing Parishoner Poaching...

Khristos Voskrese!

Sorry if this is the wrong section for this post - please feel free to move it if it is.

The title of this thread may sound like a tongue twister one says three times (I can't help a good alliteration!) but I write is as a serous question.

I imagine this is based more to our Catholic (Roman to be more exact) members, as this has been my experience thus far (people don't tend to approach EC or Orthodox parishoners as in my homeland, they don't tend to speak much English!).

Today, whilst working onsite at one of my clients - a peer was talking to me about her troubles with her husband being a Roman Catholic while she chose to worhsip with her daughters at a Pentecostal church. To avoid offending people - I wont refer to the name of the denomination - but it appears to be local to Australia and not one of the larger, well-known international ones.

The reason I was concerned was the passion with which she belittled the Catholic Church and her rituals and basically the 'Bells and Smells' (my words, not hers). It became more interesting as she demonstrated obvious frustration that her husband had a rosary under his pillow and pictures and statues about her house of Mary (whom she had little time for). She really didn't like that. What surprised me was that she confided in me that she was Catholic (born and raised) as were her children until she 'found' her new 'faith' (she didn't accept my opinion that the faith was the same, the denomination different as she clearly felt the Catholic Church and any Church that celebrated a High Mass (her words this time) which she believes is the true demonstration of belief in the Christian religion.

I have no problem with people being drawn to certain churches that 'fit' them better. My concern here was that as she described, many many members of her Catholic congregation were 'approached' by this new church, who were trying to show them the light and embrace their 'correct' manner of worship. She advised that she still had many friends (and her husband) who her church was still hoping to get into their congregation. It seems to be a clear plan of her pastor's to 'steal' the Catholics. (My suggestions of perhaps letting them be weren't welcome at all!)

So the issue I am raising is this: this is not the first time I have heard (in the last 12 months) about certain 'new' Christian denominations targeting existing members, traditionally from Catholic and high Anglican churches to increase their congregation size.

Does this seem to bother anyone as it does me? More importantly - am I overeacting at this? I personally hope the Church Proper is addressing this issue as opposed to letting it slide. It seems too much a calculated poaching rather than 'sharing the good word' to me. What really can churches do to avoid this, and would it be wrong to try and do the same (to get them back, or bring in others?).

Jut thought I would share this occurence, and see if anyone else had experienced other such phenomena like it. I would think any church of the Christian variety would best serve their purpose evangelising to non-believers, or those who embrace non-Christian religions.

The fact that she is now so anti-ritual and was (during our 10 minute conversation) trying to convince me that having books of prayer, censers, etc was something I needed to give up asap reminded me of a Jehovas Witness who I had answered the door to on a Saturday morning before I was awake enough to pretend I wasn't in... It seems strange to say, but do we face more threats from our fellow Christians than we do from other forces?

Just my two centimos....

Misha

An aspect of the problem is that while the major Christian judicatories have disavowed proselytism, some of the more fundamentalist Christian judicatories are not party to this disavowal of Protestantism, and believe that proselytism is their duty.

I certainly recognize freedom of religion. I do not consider that "targetting" a specific parish or Church for drastic proselytism is a legitimate expression of freedom of religion.

Fr. Serge

Misha, part of the problem is that these churches are truly out to save souls, and they believe that Catholics are among the most lost, particularly since we consider ourselves to be Christian. It isn't just about worship style, it is about fundamental aspects of the faith that they consider so important. (Issues like salvation by faith alone, believe in the Bible as the sole authority for a Christian, etc.) They believe that Catholic reliance on Apostolic Tradition and Sacraments make them some sort of pagan/Christian hybrid, and that endangers our souls. I don't think this is about sheep stealing, I think this is about their attempt to fulfill the Great Commission.

Elizabeth

While I decry the intentional proselytizing of members of specific Churches (something we cannot do all that much about) we need to realize that people who are well fed are generally happy to stay where they are being fed, and are far less likely to be interested in moving to another church.

If a Church is growing, it is generally because the people are being fed.

If a Church is dying, it is generally because the people are not being fed.

There are other factors. A Church that does not feed well but which is located in a growing area can grow, but that growth will be temporary. And a good Church in a dying area can also loose people (towns that are not fed economically can die).

Many Evangelical Churches grow rapidly as they gain new converts, but something like 70% of the converts do not stay past a year. This is because they are enticed by the menu but find that the actually food is not satisfying. There is much to learn here. It's all about worship.

Having been a former charismatic/evangelical for 30 years, I can tell you that unless one says the salvation prayer and "receives Christ" they are considered not to be a Christian. It is almost as if those are "magical words" somehow. I was part of a very large church outside of D.C. and at the end of each service the "invitation to accept Christ" was always presented. There were people up front who would then pray with the person to "receive Christ" and thus they were considered "saved." Unfortunately, I believe a lot of visitors are drawn to these churches because of the "entertainment" aspect .... there is usually a praise and worship band and singers, several big screens across the front with either the words of the song or other pictures of Christ, and the whole thing is orchestrated as a production. They feel this is what they are "called" to do .... to attract people, and get them saved. Poaching? Perhaps, but they truly believe they are following Christ's Words in the Great Commission.
abby

Shlomo Admin.,

I agree with what you stated. Here is an article from USA Today that dovetails with this subject.

Young Adults Less Devoted To Faith [usatoday.com]

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shortly after I was received into the Orthodox Church I was confronted by two evangelicals carrying out their Great Commission on a street corner of the small town where I worked at the time. They asked me if I had personally accepted Christ. "Yes", I emphatically told them. "What church do you go to?" I pointed to the small, white church with blue onion domes and gold crosses just up the street, and asked them a question. "Who was the first Christian?" They asked what I meant. "Well, who was the first person to hear about Christ and accept Him personally." They seemed puzzled and turned to each other for a small conversation. They offered names from John the Baptist to St. Peter and Paul. I shook my head and simply said, "Mary", and asked for the bible one was holding. I opened it to the first chapter of Luke and asked them to read aloud the story of the Annunciation. One of them so read, turned to the other and began arguing. For some reason they became very angry at me and stomped away.

Yes, we need to be fed. However, we need to personalize what we are fed and filter the language of our great Orthodox and Catholic Tradition down to a level which can readily be understood by those we encounter on street corners and highways. We need to know and let others know in a very simple, clear and forceful way that our Tradition is eminently scriptural and evangelical. What is more, that Christ is in our midst in a way so personal that these folks cannot imagine. We have that Great Commission, too.

Yes, I agree ... we need to be able to explain and defend our faith, even though it really should not need any defending as such. These folks are so "right" in their own minds, and so persistent, that unless we can point to the true history of the original church, they will not listen .... and even then they may not.
When folks have asked me about "why" I made the change, I tell them I realized that I had no clue about the ancient history of the church, the early church fathers, etc. Often I find that either stops them in their tracks, or they will ask me more.
abby