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#348085 05/15/10 02:32 PM
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I feel as though my post on the "rise of Islam" was not given its just due consideration. I clearly stated I'm in favor of peace and the Gospel is our surest way of defending against Muslim invasion, though I do recognize military action has been a part of the Church's past and we indeed have a "Just War" belief. I mentioned the "horrible" Crusades and asked if anything like that would be called again, if it could be called again, or are we beyond this type of action again given the bad side of the Crusades. I asked this with all sincerity to find an answer. I was then compared to a anti-semetic priest and my thread closed.

It seems as though some on here ignore the fact that the Catholic Church has a "just war" doctrine where one of the tenants for just war would be for a country to defend itself against an aggressor. Which I would argue Islam fulfills this tenant. Nonetheless, I rather have peace than violence in the name of secularism or religion. There are those in Washington controlling our government, along with politicians in Europe, who refuse to admit that Islam is a threat to Western civilization, Christianity and all faiths. Watch the videos I mentioned and then you'll see why I was asking the questions I asked. Having a naive view of Islam's true motives will result in a take over of modern day Europe just as what happened to the Middle East, North Africa, ancient Spain and France. I feel this was ignored in my original post since perhaps there are other things better to discuss.

So, I get compared to a radical, anti Semetic Nazi sympathizer priest nonetheless for bringing out the point that they are coming in and their intentions of conquest are twofold, by breeding and through combat. I merely asked what we can do about it and at what point will the West and the Church say their invasion is enough. My thread gets shut down and silenced without taking consideration to what I was actually asking.

I guess we all can live with our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on in Europe and in America with the rapid building of mosques (at the site of 9-11 no kidding) and the push for Sharia Law (which would make our beliefs illegal and punishable). No amount of faith will stop the Muslims from fulfilling their belief that they are to conquer the world by any means necessary. The Crusades seem to be swept under the rug as an embarrassment to Christianity, though I would argue what we've been told about the Crusades isn't completely true. And the Church's teaching on Just War are overlooked and possibly seen as "not part of the Christian faith, nor any religion" by moderators.

So don't act like Church-approved war has never happened. Outside the Crusades, The Battle of Lepanto comes to my mind. It was a miraculous victory won by the faithful praying the Rosary so the Catholic navy could defeat the Muslim/Ottoman invaders on the coast of Greece in 1571. In fact a Feast to Our Lady was started called "Our Lady of Victory" which is now "Our Lady of the Rosary". My Cathedral has a mosaic dedicated to the Battle of Lepanto as a glorious victory accomplished by war with the assistance of faith in our Holy Mother. To ignore and silence our past will ultimately cause our downfall.


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The problem here is that
1) just war requires true provocation
2) There is no clear benefit to war on Islam besides eradication of Islam, but many drawbacks to same
3) Islam as a general rule fights by demographic takeover
3.1) such demographic takeover would be far more difficult if Christians didn't practice birth reduction*
4) any church endorsement of a war on islam would trigger the end of tolerance of Catholics in muslim lands.

Yes, we need to get the governments to treat islam as an invading political force (rather than a religion) because its primary actions and goals are not religious but political... but it's a fine line on a slippery slope.

* by either celibacy, marital abstinance, abortion, or conception prevention.

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The conception of "just war" is not part of the Byzantine Orthodox patrimony. War is not and never can be "just", but some wars are necessary. The fundamental difference in outlook is the Eastern Churches believed war and killing remains sinful even when necessary for defense of the weak or innocent, whereas Western just war doctrine indicates that, certain prior conditions being met, neither war nor killing in war incur any stain of sin. At bottom, the differences can be traced to different ways of thinking about sin--the West as a violation of an objective code of moral law, and the East as a spiritual illness.

As for Aramis' analysis, I would have to say that, leaving aside whether war is ever just, (1) has been amply provided; (2) is not necessarily true--one could settle for a "reformation" of Islam analogous to the reformation of Judaism that occurred after Bar Kochba's rebellion of 135; (3) is false; and (4) is merely saying that things would be worse than they are, at least in the short term.

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Father Maximos wrote a very perceptive article on "just war" in Byzantine theology about eight years ago, for First Thngs, I believe. I liked it so much I transcribed a copy:

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A Just War
Stavrophore Maximos

Around 1537, the Moldavian prince, Petru Rares, an important figure in Romanian history, commissioned the painting of holy icons on the exterior of the man church of the monastery of Moldovitsa. Among the icons he had painted, one in particular stands out: a depiction of the seige of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453. The painting retains to this day much of its vividness. Nothing of the horror is left out. Cannons boom. Missiles fly. The massed ranks of the invaders stretch into the distance, while within the city the doomed people take up their holy icons along the walls to beg for a miracle of deliverance. A miracle that never came.

Why is this picture on the wall of an Orthodox church? Surely it is there as catechesis. A common view among Orthodox monks was that Constantinople fell to the Turks because of the sins of the Orthodox people. Petru Rares was engaged in a struggle against the Ottoman Turks. His monastic painters were warning the people about the danger of sin.

The idea that sin leads to war, and even to defeat, is an important one in the tradition of Eastern Christianity. In a prayer service of the Slavonic tradition, the first troparion of the canon puts it clearly: “On account of our sins and transgressions, O Righteous Judge, You have permitted our enemies to oppress us”.

It is important for us as Byzantine Christians, in this time of war, to be aware of this theme in our Tradition. But it is also important to understand the subtlety of the teaching. We cannot support the view put forth in the immediate aftermath of 11 September by some conservative Protestant figures that God had “withdrawn his hand” from America due to the specific failings of named groups. This idea sits very ill with orthodox Christianity.

“You came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first”. Echoing the worlds of St. Paul (1 Tim 1:15), we remember the truth at every Divine Liturgy in the prayer before Communion. Petru Rares did not show his people the fall of Constantinople to remind them of the sins of the Greeks a century before. He did it to remind them of their own sins in their own time.

There is a great mystery here. It is too simplistic to think that divine justice functions according to the laws of Newtonian physics. Every action does not have an equal and opposite reaction. The guilty are not always punished in proportion to their wrongdoing, and the innocent are certainly not spared according to the measure of their purity.

“Why do the wicked prosper?” asks the prophet Jeremiah (12:1). Our faith teaches us that all evils in the world—natural and man-made—are the result of sin. If 11 September teaches us anything, it is that the geometry of evil is of a kind to ghastly for comprehension. “Between the Holy Trinity and hell there is no other choice” says Father Pavel Florenksy. We can live either within the perfect order and harmony of God’s life, or we can exist amid the chaos that is outside of Him. Through sin, we choose chaos. Fallen with the rest of creation, the laws of cause and effect have themselves been corrupted. A single evil can produce untold and unpredictable consequences. How apt, for once, is the jargon of military analysis, which describes terrorist attacks as “asymmetrical”.

Perhaps this is why Byzantine theology has never attempted to devise a theory of “just war” as has been done in the West. The East has seen no point in trying to make a system of what is essentially the antithesis of system. You cannot herd cats, and you cannot make chaos neat. The East has not sought to open up the ethics of war to dialectical analysis. War is not an intellectual problem to be solved so much as it is an existential fact, or rather, an existential disaster. Reflecting on the asymmetry of the fallen world, war must be endured as a necessary evil—but with the emphasis on evil.

Even when we must take up arms for protection (as is surely the case in the present conflict), we must never forget that to fight a war is to participate in evil. God ordered His world out of chaos and called it “good”. Wars are the eruption in creation of that same chaos. How can this ever be called “good” or “just”?

“Save your people O Lord, and bless your inheritance. Grant victory to the emperors over the barbarians. . . “ So goes the Troparion of the Cross in its original Greek, pronouncing as best it can, a blessing on the warfare of Christians. But it immediately adds: “and protect your city by your Cross”. Ultimately, it is the Cross which is our true salvation. Caesar must fight, of course, and we must support him. Our sin has made such warfare inevitable. But we must never forget that true victory is not to be found in superficial things. No “system”, be it military, political, economic or even theological, can ever succeed against the chaotic asymmetry of evil that my own sin has unleashed on creation. No system can succeed, but only a Person, and a Cross.

Which brings me back to the painted siege on the wall of Moldovitsa. The ultimate collapse of the entire Byzantine political system is depicted here. A little further along the wall, the onlooker will see revealed an even more profound collapse: the end of time, and the Last Judgement. The artists’ aim was to put into perspective all our attempts to improve the world by means of politics, social action and war. The catechesis is this: do not fear the dissolution of human systems. Do not fear and do not despair. Work to make these systems bear fruit by uniting them more completely with the One who alone can order eternal life beyond the collapse of earthly existence.

Looked at in the light of the end of all things, the eschaton, all our human activities show up their myriad imperfections and corruption. Christian life is seen in the East as an ascesis, as the process of purifying our lives and actions by careful exposure of all that we do and think to the cathartic light of Christ’s judgement. War is no exception. For Eastern Christians there is something utterly stupid about debates between warmongers and peaceniks. In the light of Christ, we see that there is rarely an “either/or” when it comes to war. What matters is that the choices we make be examined constantly in that same penetrating spiritual Light. We must seek out evil wherever the Light reveals it to be: in our enemy, in our national and international policies, and above all, in our own hearts. There is no room for the sentimentality either of either the jingoist or the pacifist. There is room only for the intellectual and spiritual honesty of ascesis, as individuals and as a nation,

Eastern Christians can wholeheartedly embrace the following statement of Vatican II, quoted in the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that deals with War. “insofar as men are sinners, the threat of war hangs over them, and will continue to do so until Christ comes again; but insofar as they can vanquish sin by coming together in charity, violence itself will be vanquished and these words shall be fulfilled: “they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore” (Gaudium et Spes, 6, quoting Isaiah 2:4)

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IgnatiusBenedict,

We will not fight Muslim invasion, because we have already surrendered, at least in Europe. If there's a will, there's a way, which doesn't necessarily mean war. Swiss immigrational policies are a good example. But no one is going to apply them elsewhere for the reasons I have mentioned in my post in the closed thread.

Pacifism is obviously unchristian, because it is utopian, and nothing utopian can be Christian, because grace does not replace or destroy nature, it just elevates it. Out of more than 100 Catholic military orders some exist to this day, and only a few (like Teutonic Knights) have renounced military activity. Just read what St Bernard of Clairvaux wrote when he was calling for new knights for Christ.

Also the victory over Turks in the Battle of Vienna in 1683 happened because Virgin Mary appeared to blessed Fr Stanisław Papczyński, who was the king's confessor, and told him that he should convince the king that he should take part in the war against Turks and that she will grant him victory. So the king followed Blessed Virgin's will and went to war, visiting every Marian sanctuary on his way to Vienna, making prostrations and praying for victory. Also a Rosary Crusade with processions, adorations and massive prayer was launched in Cracow. The soldiers rushed into fight singing "The Theotokos", a Marian anthem, they were blessed with relics of the Holy Cross and relics of another saints during the battle. Later the king wrote to the Pope "veni, vidi, Deus vincit". Feast of the Holy Name of the Blessed Virgin Mary on September 12 was established in commemoration of this victory.

The last war I can think of that can be called a Crusade (that is a war waged with official blessing, ivolvement and active support of the Church) is probably the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). See the pastoral letter of the Primate Goma, or by Archbishop Pla y Deniel, the condemnation of Basques who sided with the Communists, and finally the "Joint letter of the Spanish bishops to the bishops of the whole world" (signed by ALL Spanish bishops), which was positively received in the whole Catholic world. Pius XII welcomed Franco's victory: "With great joy we address you, dearest sons of Catholic Spain, to express our paternal congratulations for the gift of peace and victory, with which God has chosen to crown the Christian heroism of your faith and charity ... As a pledge of the bountiful grace which you will receive from the Immaculate Virgin and the Apostle James, patrons of Spain ... we give to you, our dear sons of Catholic Spain, to the Head of State and his illustrious Government, to the zealous Episcopate and its self-denying clergy, to the heroic combatants and to all the faithful, our apostolic benediction."

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StuartK,

This Fr Maximos article is great, maybe except the Gaudium et Spes quotation (I don't believe that evil can be totally overcome by charity in this world - sometimes people do much evil with genuinely good intentions, so I think it's rather intrinsic imperfection of this world, than lack of charity).

I particularily like this:
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The East has seen no point in trying to make a system of what is essentially the antithesis of system.
Indeed, there are some matters that are too complicated to make a general rule out of them, and this is the moment when "Western legalism" is, IMHO, counterproductive. I thought about the Catholic just war theory in recent days, and the more I thought, the more I was convinced that it is too abstract, because in most cases it's really hard to judge whether a war is just or not (for those who start the war - their subordinates are not responsible for unjust war they fight in, according to Western theology), because those who decide about military activity often have no choice or not enough information, or not enough time, or are just misinformed. Much less is this possible for the average voter. So all these severe condemnations of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by people who saw on TV that "Bush lied" are out of place. I'll side with the East in that matters.

You wrote:
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The fundamental difference in outlook is the Eastern Churches believed war and killing remains sinful even when necessary for defense of the weak or innocent, whereas Western just war doctrine indicates that, certain prior conditions being met, neither war nor killing in war incur any stain of sin. At bottom, the differences can be traced to different ways of thinking about sin--the West as a violation of an objective code of moral law, and the East as a spiritual illness.

This puzzles me. Western theology teaches that necessity is not sinful, which means no guilt and no punishment.

1. Does the Eastern theology allow sins that will not be punished? What are the effects of such sin?
2. Does the Eastern theology allow positive obligation to commit a sin? This what IMO "sinful necessity" means. (defending the weak and innocent from a Persian horde, would mean certainty of comitting a sin, so the Emperor should let the weak and innocent be killed, and let his empire be destroyed, if he wants to be holy? If he is obliged to commit sins, how can he be a holy man? If he can't be holy, why would God discriminate poor Emperors so unjustly?)
3. Is it true that soldiers in the Byzantine Empire, who killed somebody in war, were automatically excommunicated for three years? In the Western "military ethics" circles people say so, and there's a belief that it has contributed to the fall of the Empire.

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1. Does the Eastern theology allow sins that will not be punished? What are the effects of such sin?

The Eastern emphasis is not on sin as crime, therefore worthy of punishment, but of sin as illness, in need of healing. Things which do not involve guilt can still be sinful and in need of healing, which is one reason the Eastern Churches do not make the distinction between "venial" and "mortal" sin, but rather between sin and "transgression". A sin is committed willfully, with full understanding of the sinful nature of the act or though. A transgression, on the other hand, is committed by accident or without willful intent or foreknowledge. A good analogy is a boy who deliberately throws a rock through a window, and one who accidentally breaks the window in the course of playing ball. Though one act was sinful and the other was not, in both cases, the window got broken and must be replaced.

Both sins and transgressions mar the image and likeness of God within us, and since the objective of theosis is to restore that image and likeness so that we might become sharers in the divine nature, both sins and transgressions require healing.

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2. Does the Eastern theology allow positive obligation to commit a sin?

As far as I know, there is no such obligation. One is not obligated, for instance, to commit bodily harm to another person in order to keep him from harming an innocent person. It become a matter of personal conscience, and ultimately each of us will have to defend our actions before Christ, one way or the other. Eastern Christianity does not go out of its way to offer "certitude" in morally ambiguous situations.

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3. Is it true that soldiers in the Byzantine Empire, who killed somebody in war, were automatically excommunicated for three years?

That is correct. See John Haldon's Warfare, State and Society in the Byzantine Empire, 565-1204. When we kill, we destroy the image and likeness of God in our enemy, an act which naturally alienates us from God and impedes our theosis. Even if the killing is necessary, it does not change the nature of killing. Throughout its history, the Orthodox Church always resisted calls by the secular authority, whether Byzantine or Muscovite, to declare certain wars to be "holy", and absolve in advance all who participated in them from any sins they may commit along the way.

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This what IMO "sinful necessity" means. (defending the weak and innocent from a Persian horde, would mean certainty of comitting a sin, so the Emperor should let the weak and innocent be killed, and let his empire be destroyed, if he wants to be holy?

Some of the holiest of Emperors were also great warriors. The Byzantines saw the world as fallen and broken, which of necessity meant living with and committing sins in the course of life. The Emperor might wish to live in peace, but as Emperor he was God's Vice-Gerent on Earth, and given certain responsibilities, including the power of life and death over his subjects, as well as the defense of the realm and the Church. Balancing the call for personal holiness with the moral obligations of the office was difficult--and remains difficult for secular leaders today. They will be called to account for their actions before the judgment seat of Christ, for which reason we pray continually for our rulers, the civil authorities and the armed forces.

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In the Western "military ethics" circles people say so, and there's a belief that it has contributed to the fall of the Empire.

If it did, it certainly took a long time. No, it had no impact on the fall of the Empire, which was due entirely to a confluence of circumstances that would have overpowered any civilization. Nations and empires rise and fall, and not one ever lasted as long as the Byzantine Empire, regardless of whether you peg its demise to 1204 or 1453. I recommend Edward N. Luttwak's Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire for a good explanation of how the Empire survived so long, and the factors that brought about its fall.

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I still would like to know why Neil shut down my post given war certainly is part of Christianity and other faiths. Pope's have blessed war. Byzantine Emperors have blessed wars.

With all due respect, I think I deserve an apology for shutting down my thread and accusing me of inciting violence using religion when clearly even into the 20th century the Catholic Church blessed the Spanish Civil War as Peter eloquently pointed out.

So no one sees any military action against Islam as a political force? Something needs to be done. Their intentions are to kill us and over populate. Europe will be Muslim very soon, sad to say.

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Aren't we already fighting a war against radical Islam in Afghanistan and Iraq?

I understand where you are coming from and if some form of Islamic insurgency walking the streets of Chicago persecuting Christians than I would take up arms!

But the war we should be fighting is the war to win hearts and minds. And we should hold Muslim leaders accountable for hateful speech.

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The problem, despite Stuarts denial, is that the war Islam is fighting in europe and the US is being won not by the militants per se, but by the so-called moderates, who still are intellectually Muslim, breeding rapidly in places where the local non-muslims are contracepting heavily, and from them arise a small fraction of militants. But even the moderates tend to support sharia and using extant laws to suppress non-Muslims.

There are places where the battle is violent, but that's not Europe nor (generally) the Slavic lands... there it's demographic.

And the Muscovite Patriarch Alexi II argued much the same...

I would love to see Islam treated as a hostile invading political force... but it's not going to happen in the US because it's also a religion.

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Were it not for the threat of violence--sometimes only thinly veiled, the "moderate" islamists would not be able to impose their will on a compliant European elite (the people are another matter, but in European politics, their voice hardly counts). Thus, to quote Stalin, "Kill one to terrorize a thousand"--and when the one they go after is a member of the cultural or political elite, the thousand terrorized are the people who make cultural and political decisions.

Beyond that, Islam itself mandates the use of violence to bring the dar al-Harb (the World of War--i.e., the non-Muslim world) into the dar al-Islam (the World of Submission, where Sharia rules). While a majority of Muslims undoubtedly do not participate in terrorism, a majority of Muslims do approve of its use for this purpose.

Islam is unique among the world's religions in that it promoses its adherents temporal supremacy in this world. As Christians, we know our Kingdom is "not of this world", and the Jews were promised only a small corner of this world for their own, but Muslims were promised supremacy over the entire globe, and instructed (in great detail) on how to do it (large tracts of the Quran are really a military field manual). The Quran does not demand that infidels convert to Islam (except for the polytheists, and even then they made an exception for the Zoroastrians), but only our submission to them. Islam cannot tolerate a situation in which Muslims are subject to non-Muslims, for that inverts the proper order of the world. Therefore there can be no peace between Muslims and non-Muslims until and unless this particular aspect of Islam is suppressed--either voluntarily, or by force.

As regards Muslim fertility in Europe, Aramis is misreading the data. Second generation Muslims in Western Europe have a much lower fertility rate than the first generation. While the first generation carries over with it their native TFR of 4.0, the second generation is barely at 2.0--which only looks good in comparison with the European average of 1.7.

Within the Islamic world, fertility is falling rapidly. In Iran, the most militant of militant Islamic states, TFR has fallen from 7.0 to 2.1 in less than a generation. Fertility rates are falling in places like Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia, Syria, Jordan, etc. It remains high only in the poorest of poor Muslim states (Somalia, Sudan, Yemen), where they need the bodies and where infant mortality remains high.

The problem is not so much the fertility of Muslim immigrants as it is Muslim immigrants themselves. Uncontrolled immigration, either from former colonies or through liberal asylum laws, created a massive influx of Muslims, and Europeans have done nothing to assimilate them--indeed, they don't know how, having no history of mass immigration like the United States.

If Europe is to survive, there are several things that must needs be done:

1. Extreme reduction in immigration
2. Greater efforts to assimilate immigrants and minorities already there
3. Insistence on compliance with European values and norms of behavior
4. An end to appeasement of Islamic radicals
5. A European spiritual revival, without which European fertility rates will not increase.

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Finally, some real conversation about this issue! Thanks everyone.

Scotty,
Under this new administration who knows why we're in Iraq and Afganistan. With Bush in office we knew exactly what to call it, "the war on terror". With Obama it's an "over seas contingency operation". We have polticians in D.C. who refuse to call it what it is. They won't even say "Islamic terrorism" when referring to the Underwear bomber, Times Square bomber, so on. Our political leaders are not protecting us as they should be.

I'm not "tooting my own horn", but I fought in Iraq so I've had the chance to see first hand the warriors perspective on Islamic Jihad. I think the wars in Iraq and Afganistan are completely different scenerios than defending Europe and America from Islamization. To do so would be to defend on our turf since our land is what they want and it's were they are.

Stuart,
Excellent analysis of what's going on. I learned a lot. I did not know that the Muslim fertility rate is decreasing. There is that video going around on UTube on this topic and it says they have up to 10 kids per family, therefore in a decade or so they will be the largest demographic in Europe and America since our rates are around a mere 1.7 children.

I get worried because I see how aggressive they are, even the so called moderate Muslims. They have rallies where they step on the flag, burn a doll of the Pope, they talk about how one day a Muslim flag will fly over the White House. As Stuart pointed out, their goal is to bring dar al-Harb and the majority of Muslims approve of the use of violence to achieve the world's submission to Islam.

Now, if someone is going to say we sit back and do nothing, then I would say you're no better than they are. Stuart laid out some excellent points on what needs to happen. I highly believe we need to stop their immigration into Europe and America. But that won't happen because the Liberal politicians don't see Islam as a threat. I think we need to ban Sharia in every form possible. England is trying to fight this off. You have Rowan Williams saying Muslims should be allowed to follow Sharia. I say NO, they need to follow the laws everyone else abides by in England. Sharia is nasty and Stuart I would contest that it and Islam as a whole doesn't even tolerate Christianity and Judaism. I listen to expert on Islam, Robert Spencer a lot. He insists "moderate" Muslims are Muslims who haven't decided to follow the Koran to it's fullest yet therefore there is not such thing as a Moderate.
Spencer also says in the history of Islam when Muslim invaders took over countries, you had two options. 1.) Convert to Islam. 2.) If you don't convert, a tax called the Jizya is enforced and they "subdue you until you leave the country or are forced to convert".
Robert Spencer is a Melkite Greek Catholic of Lebanese decent. He's a NY Times best selling author, speaker, lecturer, consultant for the U.S. Dept. of Defense, and he's the moderator of JihadWatch.com. If you want to get a better idea of how serious Islam is throughout the world in trying to achieve what we're talking about here, visit his blog and YouTube channel.


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Originally Posted by IgnatiusBenedict
I get worried because I see how aggressive they are, even the so called moderate Muslims.

Which means that they don't need to crush us demographically, just critical mass is needed.

Originally Posted by IgnatiusBenedict
As Stuart pointed out
I think the TFR of 1.7 in Europe is an average for both Europeans and Muslims taken together, so the difference in TFR is bigger than just 0.3.

Anyway, it doesn't matter that Muslims are less than 10% of the total French population, when they are half of the population of some large cities. They're young, and Europe is senile, so the more cars they set on fire, the more political concessions they get, and at some point of time Muslims in the army and the police will most likely not be willing to fight their brothers anymore, so the French state would have to transform itself in whatever way. Either to a more oppressive form or to a more Muslim form.

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Now, if someone is going to say we sit back and do nothing, then I would say you're no better than they are. Stuart laid out some excellent points on what needs to happen. I highly believe we need to stop their immigration into Europe and America. But that won't happen because the Liberal politicians don't see Islam as a threat.
Or they are too afraid to do anything. Or they can't afford doing anything because they will lose the elections... But this problem needs to be solved on higher organizational and institutional level. I don't know what can we do on our personal level except for lobbying for more organized solutions.

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1. Extreme reduction in immigration
2. Greater efforts to assimilate immigrants and minorities already there
3. Insistence on compliance with European values and norms of behavior
4. An end to appeasement of Islamic radicals
5. A European spiritual revival, without which European fertility rates will not increase.
1. This is not going to happen. Somebody has to pay for social security of the old Europeans, who aren't too eager to commit euthanasia, despite the propaganda campaign.
3,4. Every time a concrete action is being taken (e.g. expulsion of a radical), soon a choir of human rights activists appears and severely condemns islamophobic actions. The sickness of the liberal mind is the principal problem, I think.
5. There's no organized action to evangelize and convert millions of Muslims that have immigrated to Europe, though the opportunity is great. It's a real shame. I think that the SSPX in Germany had a lame attempt to attract the Turks, but they were immediately called to order. Actually, the Church in Europe acts as if she was just some relic of the past, so I am afraid that the closest "spiritual revival" we may witness comes from Islam. 50,000 Frenchmen convert to Islam every year, and it's not unusual to see blue-eyed blonde-haired men with beards and Islamic head coverings in the Netherlands.

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Europeans have done nothing to assimilate them--indeed, they don't know how, having no history of mass immigration like the United States.
Germans have at least 1000-years-long history of coping with ethnically distinct element. By extermination, persecution, discrimination, forced and voluntary assimilation they managed to conquer and germanize lands from the Elbe (if not Hannover) to the Memel (if not Latvia) and get rid of Polabian Slavs, die Slowinzen (whatever they're called in English), the Prussians (from whom they stole name), the Yotvingians and a few other Slavic or Baltic peoples. The same happened with the Slavic population of what is now Austria. Generally they finally succeeded in the 18th century. In the 19th and 20th century they worked hard to germanize Poles on their territories, but this was interrupted for the period of WWII and the Cold War. So I guess they know what to do with the Turks.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Some of the holiest of Emperors were also great warriors.
Is there a list of emperors venerated as saints available somewhere?

Originally Posted by StuartK
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3. Is it true that soldiers in the Byzantine Empire, who killed somebody in war, were automatically excommunicated for three years?
That is correct. See John Haldon's Warfare, State and Society in the Byzantine Empire, 565-1204.
The book you recommended argues that this canon wasn't observed, and the belief in sinfulness of killing in war wasn't universal in the East.
Originally Posted by John Haldon
While condemning murder, for example, Athanasius of Alexandria accepted not only that those who killed in war had acted lawfully, but that their actions brought honour and distinction upon them. [...] This is especially clear in later discussions of Basil’s thirteenth canon for, as canonists of the twelfth century noted, its rigorous application would mean that most active soldiers would be permanently excluded from communion. That this was clearly not the case is admitted both by the canonists in their commentaries, and is also evident in the presence in Byzantine armies of clergy, the holding of services before battle and to bless the insignia, and indeed the presence of religious symbols and images of great potency.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Throughout its history, the Orthodox Church always resisted calls by the secular authority, whether Byzantine or Muscovite, to declare certain wars to be "holy", and absolve in advance all who participated in them from any sins they may commit along the way.
Judging from the small part of the book that I was able to familiarize myself with, the proposal of the emperor Nikephros II Phocas that soldiers who fell fighting for the empire should be counted among the martyrs was rejected because "the acceptance of which would have involved recognizing the warfare of the tenth century as of a somehow different (more holy) quality than other wars, or admitting that the martyrs of the early church showed no greater courage than the common soldiers of the day who would have been henceforth their equals", not because they didn't believe that offering life in defense of the holy Rodina is enough to be saved.

Anyway, it seems that war in the Byzantine Empire was far more sacralized than I have expected, without the concept of "holy war":
Originally Posted by John Haldon
Warfare waged against the enemies of the empire was warfare to defend or extend the religion favoured by the emperor and, from the time of Theodosius I, the official religion of the state as such. Enemies of the empire could be portrayed as enemies of Christianity, against whom warfare was entirely justified, indeed necessary if the True Faith were to fulfill the destiny inhering in divine providence. To a degree, therefore, warfare of the Christian Roman empire against its enemies and those who threatened it, and therefore God’s empire on earth, was holy war. That this was a paradox within Christian attitudes to warfare is clear, but pragmatic considerations made a solution essential.
Originally Posted by John Haldon
In military contexts, this becomes especially apparent on the occasion of imperial triumphs, staged entries into the capital city involving the whole senior bureaucracy and court, the clergy of several churches, set acclamations orchestrated by imperial officials at key points along the processional route, frequent stops for prayer at churches along the route, the distribution of largesse, the display of prisoners and booty, and the close association of Christian spiritual with secular concerns.
Clergy assisting the display of prisoners and booty, in a triumphant manner! Today it's thinkable probably only in Russia. Just imagine Chechens in chains carrying oil barrels from Poti in Georgia, parading on the Red Square in front of Patriarch Cyril.

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Is there a list of emperors venerated as saints available somewhere?

We could start with Constantine the Great. So far as I know, the only other emperor numbered among the saints is Constantine XI Ethnomartyr, the last Emperor of the Romans who died defending the walls of Constantinople. But there were many other emperors whose personal piety was beyond question.

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The book you recommended argues that this canon wasn't observed, and the belief in sinfulness of killing in war wasn't universal in the East.

Canons in the Eastern Tradition in general do not comprise an objective code of law, but rather a set of precedents to be consulted and applied as appropriate. Each bishop was expected to exercise his oikonomia in the application of the canons, some being more rigorous, others more lenient. But the canons remained in effect (as they still do) and represent the norms to which the Church must aspire.

One also has to remember that Haldon, brilliant as he is, is not a believer but a traditional Marxist historian, and his interpretation of the actions of the Church must be assessed in that light.

For instance:

Judging from the small part of the book that I was able to familiarize myself with, the proposal of the emperor Nikephros II Phocas that soldiers who fell fighting for the empire should be counted among the martyrs was rejected because "the acceptance of which would have involved recognizing the warfare of the tenth century as of a somehow different (more holy) quality than other wars, or admitting that the martyrs of the early church showed no greater courage than the common soldiers of the day who would have been henceforth their equals", not because they didn't believe that offering life in defense of the holy Rodina is enough to be saved.

In fact, the proposal of Nikephoros Phokas was not the first of its kind. The Emperor Heraclios I asked the Church to issue a similar proclamation during the Persian War, and the Church refused then, as well. The Church could not, therefore, accede to the request of Nikephoros without undermining its own prior ruling and consistent teaching.

Regarding the "sacralization" of warfare, one must take into account the Byzantine's own self-perception, which comprised a kind of "Byzantine exceptionalism" based on three distinct pillars:

1. Heir of the Roman Empire--Byzantium was the continuation of the Roman Empire, its institutions and its traditions; the Byzantines drew inspiration from this and believed it their duty to defend the territory of the Empire from all enemies.

2. Heir of Classical Culture--Without accepting Hellenism (in their minds too closely associated with paganism), the Byzantines considered themselves the conservators of the classical heritage--from Homer to the Philosophers to the playwrights and poets, and they saw it as their duty to protect this from the barbarians. Be grateful that they did.

3. Defender of the Orthodox Faith--The Byzantines saw themselves as charged by God to spread and protect the Orthodox faith, a belief that became stronger after the Arab conquest of the Middle East and Egypt effectively removed the Jacobite Church from Byzantine control, and thus eliminated the need to compromise with the so-called monophysites. From that point, Byzantine Christianity was Orthodox Christianity, and Byzantine society was thoroughly and exclusively Orthodox.

Of the three, it was the last that had the strongest influence, which increased over time. Given that the Byzantines saw their survival and that of the Church as coterminous, prayer for the success of the God-beloved Emperor and of Byzantine arms was natural; in fact, we still pray for the success of our country over its enemies in the Troparion of the Cross. But that does not mean that the Byzantines looked upon war as holy in the sense that the Latin Crusaders saw their endeavor as holy; the Byzantines saw war as an unmitigated evil, a last resort to be used only when other options failed or were foreclosed. The Crusaders, coming from a culture that truly exalted war (and thus counted warriors as the highest social class--to the point that even Western churchmen bore arms and fought in the line of battle (which horrified Anna Comnena and other Byzantines).

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Clergy assisting the display of prisoners and booty, in a triumphant manner!
You read more into that than was there, but I myself do not find it objectionable. The clergy participated in the processions because their purpose was strictly to render glory to God through whom alone victory was attained. You presume a separation of Church and state which would have struck not only the Byzantines but all their contemporaries, Christian and Muslim alike, as bizarre. As I said, the Emperor was God's Vice-Gerent on Earth, and it was his duty to preserve the Christian people and God's Church from all enemies. It's hard to disentangle the Church from the State under those circumstances.

Last edited by StuartK; 05/18/10 12:50 AM.
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