The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Wenura Ravindu, Leeno, San Nicolas, Skanderbeg, ClearwaterByz
5,844 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 91 guests, and 31 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,166
Posts414,953
Members5,844
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

What is the proper way to pass through the High Place when necessary. Sign of the Cross facing east or sign of the cross facing the Holy Table? Is there a reference in the Ruthenian books someone can point too?

In Christ,

John

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Do what your priest does.

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
The prefatory notes to the Ordo Celebrationis contain some general altar etiquette.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Thanks Father Deacon. Looking through the Ordo now.

The consensus is that when we are in the High Place we are to reverence facing the east.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Except during liturgical processions (e.g., the Little Entrance and the Great Entrance), in which case, those in the procession do not bow or make the sign of the Cross while passing behind the Holy Table.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Thanks Stuart.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
The tradition which in which I was raised taught that you reverence the Eucharist reserved in the tabernacle or ark, most times on or above the Holy Table. So if you are passing the Holy Table in the back, such as when lighting candles one would actually bow to the West, otherwise you would be turning your back to Christ.

Are we in agreement here?

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Source: http://www.saintelias.com/ca/church/altar.php


The High Place

The High Place and Synthronos: The "High Place" is a special seat in the Apse of the Altar. It represents God the Father. On the Bishop sits in the High Place. Priests never sit there. When the Bishop is not present, often a Gospel Book will be placed there. Whenever one moves from one side of the Altar to the other, a Reverence is made toward the High Place. The Synthronos are the benches on either side of the High Place (cf. "syn-thronos" - seats 'by the throne'). These are the seats for the Presbyters. Thus at the Hierarchical Liturgy will find the ruling hierarch sitting here with his council of Presbyters - the original function of Priests.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
The symbolism of the Thronos and Synthronos was explicitly revealed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council, when an icon of Christ was enthroned in the bishop's seat. I believe this is still done on a number of dominical feasts.

The Thronos and Synthronos are examples of borrowing. Originally, in the Roman basilica (which served as a combination market place, meeting house and law court), the apse (which was raised above the floor and separated from it by a rail) was used by magistrates who heard legal cases there. The magistrate sat on a curule chair on a dais built into the rear wall of the apse, with other senators and equestrians seated on benches to either side.

When the Jews adopted the synagogue floor plan in the first century BC/AD, they put the Tabernacle of the Scrolls in the rear wall where the Thronos is today. The elders (presbyters) of the synagogue sat on either side. In the center of the apse was the table on which the scrolls were laid out for the reading and exposition of Scripture.

When the Christians adopted the basilica (probably no later than the early third century), the Table of Scripture became the Holy Table, where the Gospel sat enthroned. The bishop, who in the Ignatian typos, represented God the Father, sat in the Thronos. The presbyters, whom Ignatios said represented the heavenly hosts, sat to either side of him, as with the presbyters of the synagogue. This remained the case until the fourth century when, in rejecting the use of "country bishops", the Church allowed bishops to habitually delegate celebration of the Eucharist to the presbyters (who, technically, to this day are deputies of the bishop and celebrate in his place). The empty Thronos represents the missing bishop (as does the Antimension), who would normally occupy that place as a typos of God the Father.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Father Deacon Paul, since the icon of Christ the High Priest offering the Eucharist to the Apostles is on the wall of the apse behind the bishop's throne, one would also be face-to-face with Christ when reverencing eastward.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
isn't the Virgin of the Sign the more common apsidal icon?

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 11
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 11
Originally Posted by StuartK
The symbolism of the Thronos and Synthronos was explicitly revealed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council, when an icon of Christ was enthroned in the bishop's seat....

The bishop, who in the Ignatian typos, represented God the Father, sat in the Thronos. The presbyters, whom Ignatios said represented the heavenly hosts, sat to either side of him, as with the presbyters of the synagogue...

The empty Thronos represents the missing bishop (as does the Antimension), who would normally occupy that place as a typos of God the Father.
I would have thought that the most explicit Ignatian typology would have the bishop representing Christ. This is in keeping with the liturgy being offered to the Father by the Son -- and by us as "sons in the Son." It is also consistent with the "icon of Christ .. enthroned in the bishop's seat."

There are places where Ignatius links the bishop and God (Father) by way of simile, but the Christ-bishop metophor is more direct:
Quote
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. ... Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans [newadvent.org]


But more explicitly, for example [chapter headings are editorial additions giving an (obvious?) interpretation]:
Quote
Chapter 2. Be subject to the bishop, etc
For, since you are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, you appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, you may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as you indeed do, so without the bishop you should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire.

Chapter 3. Honour the deacons, etc
In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians [newadvent.org]

And:
Quote
Chapter 6. Have respect to the bishop as to Christ Himself
...It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians [newadvent.org]


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
JohnS. Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,173
Stuart, Christ is eye level on the apsidal wall, but yes the Platytera is just above in the apse.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Not every church has the Christ icon on the apsidal wall, but almost all have the Platytera in the conch.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 2
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by StuartK
Do what your priest does.

A good response . . .

We bow towards the Holy Table when crossing behind, and cross ourselves, unless carrying something that makes it impractical or a Bad Idea (i.e., fire smile

hawk, serving at the altar for three years now, never having set the church on fire (although the icons and the chandeliers have their qualms smile


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5