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Real and true Ukie uniats are very easy to spot in pictures you know, if you look closely you'll see halos around their heads. Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone though.
I'm just jokeing Ilya. Keep up the good work.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

I still don't see how anyone of the Ukrainian Catholic Church can be associated with ROCOR.

And you are a patriot . . .?

Alex

Listen Alex,

Do you really think you are helping any? What would Christ say? Love your brother, love your enemy. Take your pick. The political road has a dead end.

ilya

Alex inquires "how anyone of the Ukrainian Catholic Church can be associated with ROCOR." A more interesting question might be to what extent do all of us not use materials prepared by the Church Abroad. I'm certainly not aware that the Church Abroad has attempted to do the Ukrainian Catholic Church any damage. Visit the monastery, meet Metropolitan Laurus, and prepare yourself for a delightful surprise. Meanwhile, please do not begrudge anyone such spiritual joy. Incognitus

Dear Ilya,

And your road isn't political too?

When did church and politics NOT mix?

But I was talking generally. I understand your deep interest in and love for the genuine Eastern liturgical traditions and I know our Church isn't there yet.

A true student of the Eastern Churches, which is what you surely are, can and should be at home in all Eastern Churches to learn from them et al.

The reaction you sometimes find in me is something you will find in others in our community.

I have no problem with you being with the ROCOR as a student of the liturgy.

But the political/cultural side is there, as you know.

It is there on both the Ukie and Russkie sides.

When I thought the Ukies didn't know better, I found out that the Russkies didn't either.

But this is no reflection on you as a liturgist and liturgical scholar and leader of our Church.

If I gave that impression, I repent of it and do earnestly apologise to you.

Happy St Ilya's Day on August 2nd!

Alex

Dear Incognitus,

How do you know I haven't visited Jordanville? Or know some monks there? Or have their liturgical and other publications? Or esteem them as a Church?

If you know of any of this, please say so.

If liturgy, and icons, and incense were all that there was to "Church," there would be no problem.

And there is no problem for those who aren't a) Ukie Catholic or b) people who give a damn about those other issues.

ROCOR represents more than just good liturgy. It is that with which I take issue.

But not everyone has to.

Alex

Dear Friends,

I apologise to those I have so obviously given offense to here.

I should have just kept my big Ukie mouth shut!

I'm sure you agree . . .

Alex

You know that old saying, Alex - when you have two Ukies you have three opinions...but when you have three Ukies you have a new choir.

Polemic aside, we (UGCC) do have some things in common with the ROCOR, such as our common survival of attempted liquidation by the Soviets and forced amalgamation into the MP. And I thank God that ROCOR clergy such as Father Laurence and Father John Whiteford have toiled to make the treasures of the Slavonic Horologion available to everyone. May God bless their efforts and grant all of us mercy, charity and kindness in all that we say and do.

I think some of the ROCOR attitude towards the UGCC is a holdover of supremicist attitudes from Tsarist times which included suppression of Ukrainian literature, language, ecclesiastical hierarchy (Orthodox and Catholic) in favor of the "Third Rome". The Ukies were often caught in a sandwich between that perspective and forced, often violent Polonization from the other direction.

But not all ROCOR harbor outright hatred for the UGCC. I have a ROCOR priest friend who actually holds us (UGCC and UAOC) in higher esteem than either the OCA or the Antiochians because of our historic stance with regard to the Soviets.

Perhaps if more of us made contact with Jordanville they would see that we are not so bad and genuinely interested in restoring our Slavic liturgical tradition. But too they would have to acknowledge historical mistreatment of Ukies under Tsarist control that would be very difficult to swallow.

Dear Diak,

I was weaned on Jordanville's publications and they are great, to be sure.

But, and I too have Jordanvillian friends who have always been friends to the UGCC, their official line is still anything but charitable to the UGCC.

It is not just a matter of them thinking that we are heretics et al. That I can accept.

Their official view is entirely imperialistic and colonialist as you've said.

And our Church has not only survived the communists.

It has survived the imperial system represented by its spiritual offspring embodied by the ROCOR.

I've been there, seen them, and read what they have to offer.

Yes, their liturgical materials are excellent -they've preserved the best of the St Job of Pochaiv printing shop of the Carpathians.

But they insist it is all "Russkie" while Ukraine is "Little Russia."

For Ukrainians, there can be NO question that we cannot associate with a church like that - not until it changes its attitude - which is not to say we don't have attitudes to change either.

They see us as wayward Russians who have lost our way.

Relations of any kind with a group that sees you in that light would be UNACCEPTABLE to any other group.

But somehow some Ukies find that to be O.K.

As long as the colourful robes, chants and swinging censers continue unabated.

Fr. Taft SJ himself said, at one point, that Rome should have nothing to do with the MP until it repents of 1946.

Perhaps he was being uncharitable or unChristian?

For some reason, yourself and Ilya seem to think this is just me saying this.

You know our people would say the same thing, especially our intelligentsia etc.

I appreciate the feelings of those who are "wowed" by the ornate ceremonial high ritual of Russian Orthodoxy.

But political naivete couched in saccharine Christian "let's love one another" language to avoid the uncomfortable issues involved here is simply a copout.

ROCOR doesn't care if the Ukies like them or not - and it won't change the attitude of "Great Russia" toward our Church and people. Let's get a grip on - and you can start to resent me now if you haven't already.

It doesn't wash with our people or the UGCC in general.

And you know what our Church and people would say to what you and Ilya have said here.

The attitude, if it is yours and I'm not saying it is, that, in this matter, "what do they know?" doesn't wash either.

Getting to know ROCOR better? Fr. Serge Keleher introduced me to them a long time ago and I appreciate the wealth of liturgical publications they have produced.

Let's remember the unfortunate and enduring political backdrop of imperial colonialism that is unrelentingly present there as well.

Alex

Thanks, Incognitus, it seems there are those here who would wish to do that, unfortunately.

Alex, relations with the MP are a completely different situation than that of the ROCOR issues being discussed here. I am in complete agreement with Fr. Taft and my feelings about Alexei/Agent Drozhdov are well documented on this forum (as recently as yesterday, in fact) and well known in our Church. I don't understand why you have brought this in as a "dig" in this way.

I also do not understand your need for overgeneralization and judgemental tone exhibited above. The past speaks for itself (perhaps you have heard of Taras Shevchenko?) and I have acknowledged past atrocities caused by Tsarist rule. I also recall you acknowledging the Romanov New Martyrs not too long ago and defending their sanctity.

However, I have difficulty judging every ROCOR person I meet as hating me for simply being UGCC. Some do, no doubt, but I will not "write everyone off" yet. You may not believe this, Alex, but I have not forgotten that I am a Ukrainian Catholic and somehow have a case of mixed-up identity.

Also one can take the good and the beautiful of what the ROCOR has liturgically, which is of the Kyivan tradition, and take that back as inspiration to our own church which has been deprived of much of its former liturgical glory through latinizations, abbreviations, etc. Please pray for me, a simpleton, predisposed to romantic naievity.

There seems to be a bit of confusion. The Russian Church Abroad had nothing whatever to do with the horrible events of 1946, and is not responsible for the 20th-century persecution of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics or other Greek-Catholics. As to ethnic politics, I've noticed myself that their publications occasionally use expressions which would annoy Ukrainians (my favorite was the time a few years ago when Pravoslavnaia Rus announced that some text was "translated from the original Little Russian"!), but the best response is a courteous letter of protest. Or, if one prefers a bit of humor, write to the editors and ask politely where one may obtain a text-book and language tapes for the study of "Little Russian". Who knows; they might get the point. Meanwhile, write the bookstore and obtain a copy of their excellent English-language textbook for the study of Church-Slavonic. The Church Abroad has plenty of people who don't take the secular political baggage very seriously. If anyone wants to bother, the best response to a claim that Ukrainians are simply wayward Russians is to present the offending party with a map showing where "Ukraine" is located, and a list of member states of the UN. By the way, Alex startled me but did not offend me. Incognitus

They might respond that the UN is a Communist, Sergianist, Modernist conspiracy

Brian suggests that the Church Abroad "might respond that the UN is a Communist, Sergianist, Modernist conspiracy". Well, anything is possible. But this really happened, towards the end of the Clinton presidency: the Moscow Patriarchate, with the assistance of the Russian government, lodged an official complaint asserting that the US government was supporting the Russian Church Abroad! Since it is wildly unlikely that Bill Clinton would have been aware of the existence of the Russian Church Abroad, or had ever heard of Jordanville, this caused considerable amusement. Incognitus

Dear Friends,

I had a wonderful day yesterday as my Church celebrated the consecration of our new Eparch together with Patriarch Husar.

I do not wish to deprive anyone, least of all my Ukrainian confreres, of anything.

Jordanville and the ROCOR, as beautifully as they celebrate the Russian liturgical tradition, are ideologically enemies of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. While I honour the Romanov Saints and wish a monarchy for Russia again, I, as a Ukrainian, am against any form of Russian imperialism where Ukraine and other E. European block countries would be enslaved by it.

To say that they had nothing to do with 1946 is true. To say they would generally not be in agreement with it or would not have participated in such under a Tsarist government is simply historically naive.

If you don't like the Ukrainian traditions and joining with the ROCOR in any way makes you happy - then I say go and knock yourselves out and be filled to the brim with the joy that brings you.

I don't know of one Ukrainian who would not agree with me and disagree with you. This forum doesn't represent a cross-section of views - just those who post here.

If my saying this startles anyone, I would suggest then that one should get out into our community more.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, and I won't post on this matter again. I am ashamed and hurt by what I have read here insofar as Ukrainians can think this way.

That's just the way it is. And I'm not the only one, believe me, who thinks that way.

Other than that, I've said my peace and I won't mention it again.

Alex

I am saddened by your personal judgements placed here which you have insinuated that the faith of some here (including myself) is reduced simply to "smells and bells" and overt romanticization. Saddended, not angered.

We have a beautiful and unique musical, cultural and liturgical heritage as Ukrainians with our own particular and uniquely syncretic development of the Byzantine-Kyivan tradition. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but everything in our liturgy is iconic and involves all of the senses with incense, vestments, bells, icons, etc. This is not just a "ROCOR thing" but is one of the beautiful aspects of all of the Byzantine tradition. There appears to be those here who would like to see those traditions mitigated or somehow minimalized. Beauty is universal and a manifestation of God. Is it wrong to serve the Liturgy attempting to keep that in mind?

I think a blanket judgement like this greatly devalues the contributions some are trying to make in our Church, and can be the cause of discouragement and despondency. It seems that a few will always try to make themselves out to be the spokesmen for the entire church.

Just last night I was helping a friend in England prepare for a large funeral liturgy and helped him decipher Patriarch Josyp's rubrics from Rome in 1969 for funerals. I could have told him to just abandon it all and follow the Moscow order from the ROCOR. I greatly prefer the UGCC or else I would already be in the ROCOR. Some of our people seem to think a significant portion of the clergy should be, apparently.

I am truly sorry if I have offended you or anyone else with my posts here. I was saddended by your comments and need to take a step back from their seemingly personal nature. Luckily there are many in mine and other UGCC communities who are more positive and encouraging to me regardless of mine or their personal opinions.

May God bless us all and have mercy on us.