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LBL,

Forgive me if I sounded harsh. There are, unquestionably latinizations still remaining in some Ruthenian parishes, but they are significantly less than they were some few years back. The most significant problems of the Ruthenians now are not so much latinization as an inability or unwillingness to fully restore their heritage and praxis, as they've shed those latinizations.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by Catechumen
Ric is Ruthenian and proposes that those of the Latin Rite should practise and use what has organically grown within that tradition, as well as Byzantines fully use their Rite without mixing in bits and pieces of other Rites.

This does sound like a good ideal.

But for the encouragement of my fellows, though, who do mix traditions -

As one who lives in one of the most self-destructive Latin dioceses in the US, it seems to me that whatever spiritual tools we can pick up amidst the wreckage are great.

Or to put it in more positive language, to always prefer gold to silver - to choose the most efficacious helps we have at hand - be they Latin, Greek, or Syriac.

Or in more plain language, I'd rather be a spiritual mutt in Heaven than a purebred who didn't make it.

At least as a layman. Those in authority probably have more responsibility to their ritual tradition.

Humbly submitted,
Booth

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Originally Posted by DTBrown
A good intro IMO from a priest of the Ruthenian Church would be this article on page 9 [archeparchy.org] of the latest issue of Byzantine Catholic World by Fr. David Petras.

As to the specifics, I'll let others comment on those.


I would love to know how these Eastern Catholics, who favor latinizations, which the article refers to. Can call a happy, clappy, guitar stringing, Life Teen Mass as superior to the Divine Liturgy. Must be members of the "Area Tollhouse Cult" as Archbishop Lazar, of the OCA, puts it. He He !!

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Originally Posted by Booth
Originally Posted by Catechumen
Ric is Ruthenian and proposes that those of the Latin Rite should practise and use what has organically grown within that tradition, as well as Byzantines fully use their Rite without mixing in bits and pieces of other Rites.

This does sound like a good ideal.
But for the encouragement of my fellows, though, who do mix traditions -
As one who lives in one of the most self-destructive Latin dioceses in the US, it seems to me that whatever spiritual tools we can pick up amidst the wreckage are great.
Or to put it in more positive language, to always prefer gold to silver - to choose the most efficacious helps we have at hand - be they Latin, Greek, or Syriac.
Or in more plain language, I'd rather be a spiritual mutt in Heaven than a purebred who didn't make it.
At least as a layman. Those in authority probably have more responsibility to their ritual tradition.
Humbly submitted,
Booth

I would add that to say that here in the U.S. what it means to be a Latin/Roman Catholic can literally vary from parish to parish, diocese to diocese.
If it weren't for Fr Loyola and his Light of the East podcasts I don't if I wouldn't have started looking much closer into Orthodox Church.

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Our Ruthenian Gk. Cath. Ch. here in the USA is still undergoing reconstruction. We ain't finished yet; and we probably never will be, until the parousia, anyway.

Now someone might make the comment that what we're presently undergoing is DE-struction rather than RE-construction and that may be so but I prefer a more positive asessment. I don't think it's pollyanna-ish to hope for that.

Romans 12:12 applies here, IMHO.

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I think it's always worth considering what constitutes a real, organic tradition and not putting things in buckets of "latin" "non latin".

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Good point. I think we're still trying to figure that out.

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To understand what is and is not a latinization, and why such inclusions are unhealthy, read Father Robert Taft's seminal essay, "Liturgy in the Life of the Church", which can be found in Eastern Churches Journal, Vol.7 No.2 (Summer 2000).

One should also beware that "latinization of the mind" is far more insidious and dangerous than mere latinization of the liturgy. The latter can be erased with the stroke of a pen, the former requires decades, yea, generations of intensive catechesis and reeducation. The problem facing the Ruthenian Church today is a profound latinization of its mind, which is being reflected in its liturgical life.

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For ease of reference, I transcribed Father Taft's essay some time ago. Those who want a copy can contact me by PM.


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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
Good point. I think we're still trying to figure that out.

Just remember the church is the church of the people. However well intentioned the clergy and hierarchy are, however eloquent, well researched and presented their conclusions are; they often get things wrong. Renewal can leave people divided and confused.

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Renewal can leave people divided and confused.

Not if the leaders do their job--which is to teach and to lead. Most of the time, they do neither.

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Latinization of the mind indeed sounds painful, but once diagnosed, I'm not sure the cures aren't making the situation worse. Aggressive change, pushed from the top, of any kind will have ramifications for the people who are used to the tradition they have as they have received it. That includes traditions, which presumably would fall under the heading of "latinizations".

I am always wary of the zeal of reformers and leaders of renewal.

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Stuart, you wrote:

Originally Posted by StuartK
To understand what is and is not a latinization, and why such inclusions are unhealthy, read Father Robert Taft's seminal essay, "Liturgy in the Life of the Church", which can be found in Eastern Churches Journal, Vol.7 No.2 (Summer 2000).

One should also beware that "latinization of the mind" is far more insidious and dangerous than mere latinization of the liturgy. The latter can be erased with the stroke of a pen, the former requires decades, yea, generations of intensive catechesis and reeducation. The problem facing the Ruthenian Church today is a profound latinization of its mind, which is being reflected in its liturgical life.

Can you elaborate as to what you mean by the latinization of the mind? I am a Latin Catholic, who is instinctively and increasingly drawn to Eastern Christianity. What do you, and others, see as the symptoms and effects of the Latin mentality, and how can we overcome it (if that is even possible)?

Many Thanks!

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Latinization of the mind the the interiorization of Latin theological methods, definitions and categories, as well as Latin preferences in matters of administration, worship and discipline. The underlying presumption is the Latin rite is both superior and normative, the Byzantine rite inferior from a variety of perspectives.

The RDL reflects a number of intellectual latinizations even under the guise of restoring "authentic" Byzantine practices: uniformity, minimalism, a preference for modern, colloquial and inclusive language, a denigration of ritual, a suppression of mystery. Some of these predate the Second Vatican Council, others are fruits of the Council, now discredited and being superseded in a "reform of the reform"; these are now being implemented in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church, which comes off looking and sounding like little kids using the out of date slang of their elder brothers and sisters.

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That all sounds like modernization. Latinization does not equate with modernization, at least in my opinion. I would guess many who prefer the TLM would take a similar view of things like gender neutral language.

My parish retains a number of "latinizations" which have simply just become part of the fabric of everyday worship. It's possible our minds may be latinized. I do say "non sequitir" a lot.

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