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Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354363 10/13/10 08:06 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Originally Posted by StuartK Quote Stuart, I do not mean this as a trap, or to corner you, but how, then can you reconcile this with the words of the Apostolic Constitution, Ineffabilis Deus . . . Easy--it's just the the rantings of a rather opinionated Italian gentleman, and no concern of mine. Just because a Pope says something, and then says it is dogmatically binding, doesn't mean everybody will accept it as such. Just ask Gregory VII Hildebrand or Boniface VIII. "Into the valley of Death / rode the six hundred" (Alfred, Lord Tennyson) Stuart, you do have a talent for polemics!

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354364 10/13/10 08:10 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by desertman Originally Posted by ajk Originally Posted by StuartK Just because a Pope says something, and then says it is dogmatically binding . . . This basically answers the thread's Subject: "Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda [sic]?" Originally Posted by StuartK . . . doesn't mean everybody will accept it as such. Just ask Gregory VII Hildebrand or Boniface VIII. The clear point of Boniface VIII's Unam Sanctam was that such non-acceptance is, well, unacceptable. Thank you for posting. This is what I've found so comforting about being Catholic. We don't have to torture ourselves about the truth. It is beautifully and clearly explained to us and we are to be like children and trust in the authority placed over us by God. If there are any Catholics who would accuse me of being "latinized" for such a way of thinking, then I guess I'm latinized.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354365 10/13/10 08:11 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Luvr of East Glory to Jesus Christ! Dear desertman, I'm confused. Are you an Eastern Catholic or a Roman Catholic that was looking and changing Churches? Sorry, I forgot. I know there is a new person on here that was looking at changing from Rome to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches other than myself but I forget who he is. Kyrie eleison, Manuel

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354366 10/13/10 08:13 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by StuartK The clear point of the rejection of Unam Sanctam was sometimes even the Pope gets too big for his britches. Which is why Dante reserved a special spot in hell for Boniface.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354367 10/13/10 08:14 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by desertman Originally Posted by Luvr of East Glory to Jesus Christ! Dear desertman, I'm confused. Are you an Eastern Catholic or a Roman Catholic that was looking and changing Churches? Sorry, I forgot. I know there is a new person on here that was looking at changing from Rome to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches other than myself but I forget who he is. Kyrie eleison, Manuel Hello again! Yes, I'm Roman Catholic discerning a call East. So when I said I've been latinized, I was being ironic. Please pray for me!

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354368 10/13/10 08:21 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Luvr of East Originally Posted by desertman Originally Posted by Luvr of East Dear desertman, I'm confused. Are you an Eastern Catholic or a Roman Catholic that was looking and changing Churches? Sorry, I forgot. I know there is a new person on here that was looking at changing from Rome to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches other than myself but I forget who he is. Hello again! Yes, I'm Roman Catholic discerning a call East. So when I said I've been latinized, I was being ironic. Please pray for me! Dear desertman, I was wondering if that was you. Quite the irony lol. I started a new thread asking two questions. One of the questions is for you. Would you mind answering ? I'm curious and wish to understand you and others better. Here is the link: [The link is no longer active] Kyrie eleison, Manuel

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354369 10/13/10 08:24 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by danman916 That's now the second uncharitable comment toward the Latin Rite Episcopacy. I'm outta this thread. NOTE: The original comment that Danman916 was responding to has been lost.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354370 10/13/10 08:25 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by StuartK At the First Council of Nicaea, while the bishops were the formal delegates and held episcopal jurisdiction, the weight of moral authority actually rested on the Confessors who had suffered in the persecutions for their faith. And laymen have, on occasion, stood against the collected weight of all the bishops, and been vindicated in their stand--witness Maximos the Confessor, a simple monk.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354371 10/13/10 08:29 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ByzBob Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Good question! No, but there are only two statements that are generally accepted as being ex cathedra, and they both use the same form of words . . . This in interesting from the Code of Canon law: Quote Can. 749 §1 In virtue of his office the Supreme Pontiff is infallible in his teaching when, as chief Shepherd and Teacher of all Christ's faithful, with the duty of strengthening his brethren in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals. §2 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their Magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitively declare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals; likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or morals, and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held. §3 No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated. #3 states that no doctrin is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is the manifestly demonstrated. What is the process for demonstrating if a doctrine has been infallibly defined?

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354372 10/13/10 08:31 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Well may you ask. I can only point to the two existing examples: Ineffabilis Deus and Munificentissimus Deus. And, I think it is worth comparing them with Ordinatio sacerdotalis, because I am given to understand that Pope John Paul II wanted to make an infallible statement, but was dissuaded from doing so. Instead he made a statement which is as close as possible to being infallible without actually using the words employed by Popes Pius IX and Pius XII.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354373 10/13/10 08:32 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by ByzBob I will concede that it is generally thought of as being one of two (or more) statements, but does that assumption equal reality? Has Rome ever officially said that it was, if so where? Or has it just been thought of as one? If it has not been manifestly demonstrated that it is one then it would appear that there is some allowance, even on the RC side. I’m not sure that the language alone is sufficient since we can find similar wording in documents no one considers ex cathedra.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354375 10/13/10 08:34 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Originally Posted by StuartK At the First Council of Nicaea, while the bishops were the formal delegates and held episcopal jurisdiction, the weight of moral authority actually rested on the Confessors who had suffered in the persecutions for their faith. And laymen have, on occasion, stood against the collected weight of all the bishops, and been vindicated in their stand--witness Maximos the Confessor, a simple monk. Stuart is making a good point. No statement, whether from a Council or a Pope, can ever be truly infallible unless it is received by the faithful. There is no magic here.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354376 10/13/10 08:35 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Yes, I have just mentioned Ordinatio sacerdotalis as an example of a document which uses the language of (near-)infallibility. Frankly, this is all a matter of reception, but I do think Ordinatio sacerdotalis will turn out to be just as important as Ineffabilis Deus or Munificentissimus Deus. However, as a convert to Catholicism I have made a promise to believe and confess all that the Catholic Church believes, confesses and proclaims. Therefore, I try to avoid contradicting the teaching of the Popes and Councils of the Catholic Church.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? Apotheoun #354377 10/13/10 08:37 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by danman916 Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Originally Posted by StuartK At the First Council of Nicaea, while the bishops were the formal delegates and held episcopal jurisdiction, the weight of moral authority actually rested on the Confessors who had suffered in the persecutions for their faith. And laymen have, on occasion, stood against the collected weight of all the bishops, and been vindicated in their stand--witness Maximos the Confessor, a simple monk. Stuart is making a good point. No statement, whether from a Council or a Pope, can ever be truly infallible unless it is received by the faithful. There is no magic here. Is there a canon for this, or is it just generally accepted? Just wondering.

Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? ByzBob #354378 10/13/10 08:39 AM Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California A Apotheoun Member Apotheoun Member A Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,854 Likes: 8 Northern California This is a re-post of a post that was lost: Originally Posted by Latin Catholic Indeed, according to the biography by Ian Ker [amazon.co.uk], Blessed John Henry Newman was critical of the dogma of Papal Infallibility, not because he did not believe in it, but because he thought it was unnecessary at the time. He did not believe in defining dogmas merely for the sake of devotion. He thought that dogmatic definitions should be made from necessity. And, as such, Ordinatio sacerdotalis is a much better candidate for infallible status, because it is clearly a necessary answer to current and widespread heresies and misunderstandings.