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That is a good question, Father. However, I am still confused at the way the terms; Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire are used, at sometimes seemingly interchangeably. It also makes me wonder exactly what the Church means when it makes the statements it does about those who die in mortal sin or original sin only desending immediately into hell. Which hell is it? This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way.
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This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way. There are no satisfactory answers, because all answers on this matter -- and many others pertaining to our faith -- are speculation. Speculation rooted in faith and tradition, but speculation nonetheless. Part of the mystery of our faith is that we will never be satisfied until we are standing before the throne of the Most High.
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The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.
The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."
The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question? I'd be interested in that too. As to my own questions, someone was kind enough to email me a copy of what the Council of Florence said. ...if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.
Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. If that's all the council said, the only things that seem to be unambiguously affirmed (or defined as dogma) are that some souls are cleansed after death, that the length or quality of their discomfort can be lessened by the suffrages of the living, and that there may be others who are less fortunate. I don't see anything here that dogmatically require one to believe anything more than that.
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That is a good question, Father. However, I am still confused at the way the terms; Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, Lake of Fire are used, at sometimes seemingly interchangeably. There is no agreed teaching in Orthodoxy about the details of the afterlife. Beyond a very broad outline we are "looking through a glass darkly." For example, Saint John Maximovitch says that the damned go to Gehenna. Saint Ignatiy Brianchaninov is clear on this too. Other modern teachers see Gehenna as the Lake of Fire and not yet in existence. It is the Lake of Fire which will be created in the future on Judgement Day. And again, other people will tell you it is already in existence but uninhabited. So that raises a question or two. In the 1970s when Fr Seraphim Rose and The Orthodox Word had made sure that we all had the schema of the afterlife firmly fixed in our brains, at least according to Fr Seraphim's ideas, I could have rattled off the difference between hell and hades and gehenna, sheol and tartarus in 10 seconds. But when I learned through my spiritual father at the monastery in Serbia that this schema cannot be found in the Fathers, that they do not teach much about the afterlife very precisely, that they interchange terms constantly and that it is not possible to draw up any consistent schema based on the Fathers - well, what was the point of adopting any one schema and insisting that it was *the* one? So it is not a case of "simply not knowing." It is more a case of giving up and admitting with Saint Paul that at the very best we can only "see through a glass darkly" and all our speculative systems about the afterlife are pretty much based on the pride of the human mind which cannot bear to admit that it does not know something and so to fill the vacuum it spins theories of its own. Again, I see the profound wisdom of the bishops of the Russian Church Abroad who warned people in their 1980 Resolution on the toll houses that there is great spiritual danger in creating conjectures about the afterlife.
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This has confused me for some time, and I have never really had anyone answer this question in a satisfactory way. There are no satisfactory answers, because all answers on this matter -- and many others pertaining to our faith -- are speculation. Speculation rooted in faith and tradition, but speculation nonetheless. Part of the mystery of our faith is that we will never be satisfied until we are standing before the throne of the Most High. As an Orthodox Christian, I agree and I believe that Fr. Ambrose has thoughtfully stated the Orthodox position as I was taught as a youth and believe as an adult.
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Father,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
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Father Ambrose:
Father bless!!
Thank God for you and thank you for this explanation.
I think, in all this, we all miss one very important point. That is, the MERCY of God. In one of the evening prayers from my Romanian Orthodox prayerbook, there is great hope
"O Master Who lovest all men, will not this bed be my grave? Or wilt Thou again enlighten my condemned soul with the day? Behold, the grave lieth before me. Behold, death standeth before me. Thy judgment, O Lord, I fear and the unending torments, yet I cease not from doing evil. O Lord, my God, continually I anger Thee and Thy Most Pure Mother, and all the Heavenly Powers, and my Holy Guardian Angel. I know, indeed, O Lord, that I am not worthy of Thy love for all men, but am worthy of every condemnation and torment, to be bound and cast out to suffer them all.
But, O Lord, whether I wish it or not, do Thou save me. For if Thou savest the Just, it is nothing great, and if Thou hast mercy on the Pure, it is nothing marvelous, for they are worthy of Thy Mercy. But upon me, a sinner, show the wonder of Thy Mercy. In this manifest Thy love for all men and let not my evil nature overcome Thy Grace and Kindness that cannot be told (expressed or comprehended). And as Thou wishest, orderest my goings aright. Enlighten my eyes, O Christ my God, that I sleep not in death, lest my Enemy say, 'I have prevailed against him.'"
My hope is in this bolded phrase. That the mercy of God is something so wonderful--something that can take away the breath of those on whom it is lavished--that I'll wait for and hope in Him. After all, one of God's names is "Mercy," right after "Love." This prayer has sunk deep into my own approach to the One Who came here to bridge the gap between the Father and me, and the Father and all of those who want it bridged.
In Christ,
Bob
Last edited by theophan; 11/10/10 01:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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The prayer in the Mass for the Dead "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" is known by Catholic theologians to have been a prayer for deliverance from Hell, but the same theologians point out that over the centuries such an understanding came to be seen as erroneous and the prayer was given a modified interpretation.
The Catholic Encyclopedia: "In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted."
The Eastern Orthodox maintain the older belief that deliverance from hell is possible. I would be interested to know how Eastern Catholics view this question? Aren't Hans Urs von Balthasar and Wacław Hryniewicz catholic theologins? How can Catholic theologians be unanimous on teaching the impossibility of deleverence from hell, when some are clearly of the opinion that deliverence is possible? Here are some quotes: The two theologians, Hans Urs von Balthasar and Wacław Hryniewicz in supporting the hope of universal salvation are aware that apocatastasis was condemned by the Magisterium but make clear that hope of universal salvation does not contradict the official teaching...Is it possible that Christ descended into hell to end the punishment of sinners? Von Balthasar clearly understands it as a salvific event...According to Hryniewicz, the New Testament does not provide the definition of aoinios, “eternal”. It may only mean “to exist through the centuries”, “existing through the eons” (Hryniewicz, Dlaczego 168)...Eternity belongs to God alone. It is a sign of his absolute transcendence of all creatures. Only God is the absolute fullness of life without origin and without end. He alone is really eternal. The word “eternal” in relation to creatures may only have a limited and relative meaning (67). Moreover, in Plato’s writings the word aionios means persistence that will finally come to an end. Origen also noticed that aionios can have many meanings. According to him, the word in Sacred Scripture sometimes means something without end (ut unem nesciat), and another times it describes the reality that does not have an end in our world but will have an end in the future world (ut in praesenti quidem saeculo finem non habeat, habeat tamen in futuro) (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 39). Therefore, says Hryniewicz, one cannot simply say that the Scriptures teach about “eternal punishment” but one has to get the proper meaning of this statement (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 39). In Matthew 25:46 the torment (punishment) is called “eternal” and is parallel to “eternal life”. In both cases the same word aionion is used. For that reason, advocates of the traditional teaching about the eternity of hell see in this parallelism the fundamental proof for the existence of eternal hell. Hryniewicz interprets it differently. He states that in this case one should not see parallel symmetric but rather parallel asymmetrical (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 41). In describing the meaning of the word kolasis, which means “torment”, Hryniewicz says that it may not mean a state that is indeed ultimate and irreversible. The “eternal torment” symbolizes purification. The cursed are to be purified in the fire of contrition. The Greek fathers, who supported the hope of universal salvation, saw the therapeutic sense of the “eternal torment” (Hryniewicz, Nadzieja 38-39). Hryniewicz summarizes that the eternity of God and the eternity of the life of redeemed cannot be treated on a par with the eternity of the state to which the cursed and the damned have been condemned. He writes in “Can Non-believers Be Redeemed”: It is a state of redemption and therapeutic character… Such a punishment is purposeful only when its therapeutic objective is possible to reach. The other punishment, even only allowed for by God would not be worthy of his love and mercy in relation to people including those lost and “cursed”. The asymmetrical parallel (Mt 25:46) results from the antithesis on which the parable of Jesus is based. It is the antithesis between the blessed (Mt 25:37.46) and the “cursed”, between the good and bad people and in consequence the antithesis between “eternal life” and “eternal punishment”. It says that something of human ultimate destiny is fulfilled already in earthly life. It is a warning. Such is its basic objective. The same adjective, “eternal,” is used in both cases but its meaning is different. These men are both Catholic Theologians. Any thoughts?
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The encyclopedia on newadvent is from 1913, if memory serves. Von Balthasar is a theologian who came to prominence many years later, after that was written.
BTW, Michael, do you have the source for your quote?
Thanks
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Bob,
Thank you for posting that prayer.
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Fr Hryniewicz, though a Catholic priest, is actually a professor of Orthodox theology and the boss of the Chair of Orthodox Theology at the Catholic University of Lublin. Go figure.
He had some problems with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in 2008, but it's unclear to me how it ended.
Anyway, it's the never-ending story of who has the authority to teach in the Church: the bishops or the theologians. The correct answer (bishops) often remains theory only.
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[quote=danman916]The encyclopedia on newadvent is from 1913, if memory serves. Von Balthasar is a theologian who came to prominence many years later, after that was written.
BTW, Michael, do you have the source for your quote?
Thanks [/quote] Yes.
Sorry I forgot the link.
http://culture.polishsite.us/mariusz/STB.pdf
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[quote=PeterPeter]Fr Hryniewicz, though a Catholic priest, is actually a professor of Orthodox theology and the boss of the Chair of Orthodox Theology at the Catholic University of Lublin. Go figure.
He had some problems with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in 2008, but it's unclear to me how it end ed.
Anyway, it's the never-ending story of who has the authority to teach in the Church: the bishops or the theologians. The correct answer (bishops) often remains theory only. [/quote] I believe Pope Paul VI (who was a Bishop before becoming Pope) intended to raise Von Balthasar to the level of Cardinal, and I think Archbishop Luis F. Ladaria (secretary of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) has pubished a book entittled "Jesus Christ: The Salvation of All (Miami Fl: Convivium Press., 2008), in which he supports Von Balthasar's views.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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MichaelB: Christ is in our midst!! the hope of universal salvation Therein lies a very important distinction that is not merely a matter of phrasing. To hope for universal salvation--that might be saved--is not the same as saying it will come to pass. Again, I think that the Sobor of the Russian Church Abroad has it right. There are some of these things that we ought not try to define, lest we get ourselves into spiritual trouble, whether in heresy or prelest or presumption. We have one hope--Jesus Christ--and the wonder of His Mercy. I once remarked that I don't like surprises--people jumping out from behind couches yelling "Happy Birthday" (REALLY DISLIKE that kind of stuff). But, if I make it into the Kingdom, I'm perfectly willing to be made speechless at what I see and have to absorb as the "wonder" of God, His Mercy, and His Kingdom. (And a friend of mine says he wants to be there just to see that--me speechless.) We stand on so much "sand" in this life, a life that is, as St. Paul puts it, "passing away." In this shifting environment, it ought to give us hope that our anchor is a Person, a Person we can trust explicitly. He said He was coming back for each of us. He said He was going to prepare a place for each of us dwell. His Resurrection is the promise of our own, since we have been plunged into Him by Baptism. He has said that there is a place of refreshment and a place of suffering. Seems to me we ought to focus on Him, His promises, and conforming our lives to be such that when He comes he immediately recognizes us and takes us along with a "Come with Me." I really appreciate the ROCOR bishops for calling us away from all this needless speculation that can become a diversion by which the Enemy can plant the seeds of doubt in Christ's promises. Somewhere in Scripture I remember a verse that says "It pleases your Father to give you the Kingdom." That's enough for me to absorb as I sit and do a quiet minute to focus on who I am, where I'm going, and what's important. I know I can't earn it. I know that with all the preparation in the world I fall short. But I am overwhelmed by the thought of that endless sea of mercy that will sweep over me and make it all happen. I am overwhelmed by the thought that even when I have shredded my Baptismal garment by my own sin, the Blood of Christ will enrobe me and make me a wonder for all of creation--that the length and breadth and heighth and depth of His Mercy cannot be exhausted by even me and all the foul stuff I've been able to do and think and say. So I wait for the mercy and hope that I will be astonished that it may reach to every other creature, too. There's another ribbon in this area. Jesus asked for forgiveness for His murderers from the Cross. He asked us to pray for our enemies to show that we are sons of the Father, as He is. So in this spirit of generosity, is it not our job to pray for and hope for all to be saved? That's not to say that all will be, but it is the same as hoping for all to be saved--and leaving the judging to Him Who came here to save us. In Christ, Bob
Last edited by theophan; 11/10/10 07:22 PM.
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"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Lk 12:32).
Thank you, Bob, for reminding us of this wonderful verse.
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