www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Orthodox "proselytizing" in Catholic Countries?

With all respect, only the Coptic and Ethiopian (?) Orthodox Churches don't recognise Rome's apostolicity...the Syrians, Indians, and Armenians all recognise Rome's apostolicity. And somehow, I think this difference in affirmation is less due to doctrine and more to politics...

...and I'm not even gonna bother about councils 4-7. :p

Good night!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Even among the former Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission, American Orthodoxy's most active proselyting tool until it full absorption into the Antiochian Missions and Evangelization Department several years ago, there was actually very limited proselytizing.

Orthodox Proselytizing usually is limited to a news paper ads announcing "Come Worship as the Apostles did. You are Welcome at St---- Orthodox Church" or "Orthodox Christianity founded 33ad"or the Antiochian's favorite " And they were first called Christians at Antioch...Come worship with the Church of the early Christians".

Other activities may include an information booth at a state fair with a sign "Orthodoxy, America's best kept secret". Or a sign announcing a prominent Orthodox Writer presenting a Talk at St----- Orthodox Church.

For the most part, like myself, most Orthodox converts walk in the front door of an Orthodox Church and tell a priest or a door greeter that they are "interested in the Orthodox Church" or that they have "come to become Orthodox". Active proselytizing, as done by the Mormons, Baptists, and other protestant groups, is foriegn to Orthodoxy. To most Orthodox, the primary tool of proselytizing is the Orthodox Service---either someone is attracted to Orthodoxy "True Worship" or they are not.

What the ROC and other Orthodox Churchs fear is the wealth, the ability of the RC to be able to pour large amounts of funds funneled through RC Mission organizations into social welfare type programs, Church buildings, and Church Youth and Elder Programs that "buy" converts. This fear is similar to the RC in the Latin American and other 3rd world countries who are facing Evangelical Protestants with lots of money and programs that attract the poor and wretched of the earth.

(It should be noted that Orthodox Countries also are very fearful of the proselytizing of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Church of Jeus Christ of latterDay Saints-Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists, the many various independent Evangelical movements like the 700 Club, Benny Hinn---himself a former Greek Orthodox, and even the American Bible Society for distributing non-Orthodox Bibles in Orthodox countries. These groups specialize in providing welfare type programs, teachings that specifically attack the Orthdox Church ---often using the same tactics they use against the Roman Catholic Church, aim at the Youth through very specific youth Missions and the Elderly through Hot meal programs. A fovorite tool is the popular "name it and Claim it" and the current manifestation of the old prosperity ministry of the Prayer of Jabez)

It is interesting that the only official Roman Catholic Program that does not seem to do this. It is "Aid to the Russian Church" in which the funds are channeled to the MPROC in the form of liturgical vestments, portable (train and Barge) chapels, and funds to pay Orthodox Priests.

I am not sure if the ROC fear is founded but memory in the old world is very long and unforgiving---perhaps they are remembering the Jesuits, Polish invasions, the forming of the uniate (forgive me for this word) missions, the Basilians, and other groups whose sole purpose seemed to be the conversion of Orthodox to the Church "under the Pope". Much like the eastern Catholics who seem to always remember their suppression by the Tsars, forced reconversion to the Russian Orthodox Church, the confiscations of Eastern Catholic Churches, and the martyring of Eastern Catholic Clergy and Believers in Gulags with no forgive and forget apparent yet.

May God grant us forgiveness of our mutual sins. Lord have mercy upon me a sinner!

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Ah yes, this must be what everyone meant by this being such an Orthodox and Orthodox friendly board. Serge, Brenden and others, is this what you meant? I just love seeing this stuff on an Eastern CATHOLIC board. Pretty much confirms what I questioned about a month ago (i.e. Catholic or Eastern).

Happy Lent y'all!

Rob

Read it and weep it my fine-feathered bird.
Obviously, you don't know that we are not in communion with your patrimony. This is a sad moment. Hold hands you lover birds!

Dear Brother Thomas,

I just had to write to thank you for your thoughtful and balanced post on this important subject.

Your deep understanding of the Eastern Catholic position is remarkable and goes beyond what a number of Eastern Catholics I know can say about the matter.

I agree with your assessment and analysis completely.

One could make the additional point that the move by the RC Church affects Byzantine Catholics as well, since this decision changes not the position of Byzantine Catholics in Russia.

There is also a move among Byzantine Catholics to the RC Church for the reasons you cite and we are not untouched by it.

May God bless you in your work in Christ's Vineyard,

Alex

Dear Rum,

Please refrain from your uncharitable antics in addressing others on this Forum.

Have a look at Brother Thomas's serious and responsible post on this subject, and do try to emulate it to some degree, if you have it in you.

Most of Orthodoxy considers Rome to still BE Apostolic.

Most of the Orthodox who don't aren't considered Apostolic by mainstream Orthodoxy.

Judging by your whining attitude, you sound like a former RC with a need to address some latent guilt by such extreme characterizations of your former Church.

Sorry, but smarten up.

Alex

Rum Orthodox:

Your position has no logic at all. You say that there is "nothing wrong proselytizing non-Apostolic churches even Roman". So, if RC Church is not an apostolic church, there is nothing wrong with MP and other orthodox churches proselytizing in mainly Roman Catholic countries. But you would cry foul if RCC would do it in mainly Orthodox countries. No logic at all.

Also, if RCC is just another "denomination" what is the reason for complaining, after all, we are not Church.

Rum Orthodox,

Like you, I am also a convert to Orthodoxy. I am very grateful for my new home. Being new, I don't understand everything.

I'm particularly confused that you would take it upon yourself to question Rome's apostolicity. I always thought our official position was "We know this is the Church, we don't know about anyone else."

Evidently you do know about someone else since you have here claimed that Rome is no longer apostolic. Is it your acumen as a historian or theologian on which you base your claim? That's very impressive.

Where is the humility in this claim?

Dear David Lewis,

I'm in a dilemma perhaps you could assist me with.

After reading your erudite post and as an Orthodox Christian, I wanted to invoke your screen-name patron, St David Lewis on your behalf to express my deep gratitude for your presence on this Forum.

But then I remembered that this martyr from Wales was a Roman Catholic.

Given what you've said, I will go ahead, however!

God bless you!

Alex

Hi Alex,
I am always looking for a hot conversation to spark even I know that I need to be corrected. LOL. Thanks old chum.
In regards to the apostolicity of Rome, it ceased way back in history. If it didn't we would all be in communion sharing the Unity of Faith. The way I see the situation of Rome is no different than Anglicanism or Lutheranism believing that they have apostolic authority. Catholicism and Protestantism being opposite sides of the same coin.
By the way, I don't know if I can technically classify myself as a former Roman Catholic despite being brainwashed by my Melkite parents. They did force me as a child to take my "first communion" in a Roman Catholic Church even though my first true communion was in the Orthodox Church at my baptism in Jordan. I still remember my baptism at the age of 4. Do I have a "beef" against Rome? You can count on it. Until Rome apologize for uniatism and converting the Orthodox from my home town in Jordan. The apology must be written in Arabic as well as in English. They must return what they have stolen by speaking to former Orthodox Christians. Also, get rid of the Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem. Correct these historical and ecclessiastical errors and I promise I will be good. I promise. lol

Buenos Dias Hector,
Orthodoxy has exclusive claims not found in Rome or at the Vatican. Logically, it is truly the right of Orthodoxy to help bring back the lost sheep that includes Rome and all mankind. Our claim that we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church cannot be abrogated by Papal Supremacy & Infallibility. We have a duty to spread the good news that Orthodoxy reigns and her truths cannot be compromised. Anything else other than Orthodoxy has lesser chance of spiritual survival. Orthodoxy is indeed good for the soul. Anything else is mere speculation.

Dear Rum,

Wonderful.

But that is not what Hector was talking about.

Do you personally believe that Rome isn't Apostolic?

And, if you are Antiochian Orthodox, which I surmise you are, doesn't that put you at odds with what your jurisdiction believes?

Alex

Dear Rum,

You obviously have some serious personal issues here and I have no wish to address those or to make you feel that I am inhospitable, in any way, to you.

The Administrator has asked all of us not to use "uniatism" here and I, for one, will obey - how about you?

No matter what your Melkite parents did, and no matter what their religion, you owe them respect according to the Decalogue. "Brain-washing?" Was that their true intention? Do you know? But you still owe them the reverence that the Ten Commandments obliges us to. Any religion, yes even canonical whatever, that doesn't teach us that basic thing is not the religion of Christ.

And if we decided our faith on the basis of past repression alone, well, I too could say as you say about both the Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

If you would like an apology, I'm sure the Pope will get around to it eventually . . .

Personally, when it comes to canons, councils and what-not, the number one document that should always be before us is the Gospel of our Lord, God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, His message of forgiveness, love and acceptance.

I have read postings here by Orthodox Christians. And their words have reflected Christ.

Friend, whatever your faith, you need to lay aside what you use as barriers to the Gospel of Christ and let the warmth of His Word and Person come into your heart.

On the final day, Christ will not ask us whether we were Catholic or Orthodox or whatever.

What He will ask us is written in His Gospel for one and all to see.

In humility and brokenness of heart,

Alex

You know, Robert, we should all weep that there is not unity. Quite frankly, your flippant remarks and condescending attitude make me sick.

What is your business on a Catholic forum? Do you have something meaningful to share or are you just a troll here?

Finally, isn't it a little early in Lent for you to be going off the deep end? Doesn't that usually happen later in the Lenten fast? You better get a grip my friend or you will be completely daffed by Easter Sunday LOL!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rum Orthodox:

"In regards to the apostolicity of Rome, it ceased way back in history. If it didn't we would all be in communion sharing the Unity of Faith.

Yep. Then, so did that of the Orthodox Church. Without the See of Rome the Orthodox Church isn't Apostolic either.


"The way I see the situation of Rome is no different than Anglicanism or Lutheranism believing that they have apostolic authority. Catholicism and Protestantism being opposite sides of the same coin."

Such charity, especially during Great Lent. How kind of you, Robert Sweiss.

"By the way, I don't know if I can technically classify myself as a former Roman Catholic despite being brainwashed by my Melkite parents."

Again, the charity is bountiful! Another Orthodoc Christian who talks about how tough Great Lent is and what a spiritual exercise it is yet backbiting those who are not Orthodox! I love it! Keep talking out both sides of your mouth Robert.

"They did force me as a child to take my "first communion" in a Roman Catholic Church even though my first true communion was in the Orthodox Church at my baptism in Jordan."

Gooy, goody, gumdrops. Then you're even more Orthodox than the regular Orthodox aren't you Robert?

"I still remember my baptism at the age of 4. Do I have a "beef" against Rome? You can count on it. Until Rome apologize for uniatism and converting the Orthodox from my home town in Jordan."

Geez, if I become Orthodox do I get to become the victim of all that Rome has ever done?

"The apology must be written in Arabic as well as in English. They must return what they have stolen by speaking to former Orthodox Christians."

How about Aramaic too? Robert, you're so transparent that we all know that this wouldn't satisfy you either. Oh, there would ALWAYS be another condition. At some point, Robert, you need to start living in the here and now and not 200 to 1,000 years ago. By the way, when is the Russian Orthodox Church going to return the churches they stole from the Eastern Catholics?

"Also, get rid of the Latin Patriarchate in Jerusalem. Correct these historical and ecclessiastical errors and I promise I will be good. I promise. lol"

How about all of the Orthodox churches get out of America since the Roman Cathaolic Church was here first.

You're a stitch, really. I am really looking forward to seeing what a lunatic you become as Great Lent progresses. This should be amusing. Only a few days into it and you're already losing your mind.

Rob