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I find it rather amazing that such things would come out of the mouth of someone professing to be Orthodox. I think that if I were Robert I would be respectful of my parents and thank them for introducing me to the Savior.

The Byzantine Forum exists for people to help one another grow in Christ and provide a witness of their respective Churches. The Forum welcomes responsible people of all faith groups to present the teachings and positions of their respective Churches. Anyone reading these pages will see instantly that there is no censorship of ideas here. Lack of Christian charity, however, will not be tolerated. This Forum is not to be used by anyone to attack another's faith. I have a tremendous amount of respect for my brothers and sisters who are Orthodox and I will not allow others to form a negative opinion of Orthodoxy based upon Robert's childish posts. Some of the issues he has presented are valid ones. The method he has chosen to present them is a disservice to anyone calling himself Orthodox, not to mention rendering his posts worthless.

I ask Robert to refrain from posting on the Forum in the future.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ephraim Reynolds:
[QB]

No, I am not kidding you.

But you were not "defending" the Catholic Church---you attacked him, personally. There is a difference, you know.

Ephraim,

You know what I am tired of? Coming on this Catholic board and being treated like I don't belong here. I am tired of the Eastern Catholic giving the remarks of the Orthodox Christians a pass while taking me to task for mine. How about a little indignation towards the Orthodox comments once in a while?

My comments were directed at Mr. Sweiss and, yes, they were personal digs, to a point. However, they were a point for point answer to one of his earlier posts. Did you take him to task for anything he wrote?

Again, earlier this year I questioned where some of you folks would come down when things got tough. Would you side with the East or would you side with the Catholic Church? By your silence when Orthodox writers post on this Catholic board I think the answer is painfully obvious.

Did it ever occur to any of you that the Orthodox posters here really could care less about helping yopu to grow as Eastern Catholics? Robert Sweiss said that the Catholic Church is NOT Apostolic. If he doesn't even consider you to be Apostolic then what is he doing here? Is his intent to convert you or beat you into submission because he and his Church do not consider you even to be Orthodox in communion with Rome? Or, is he here to exchange pleasantries? He hasn't done much of that either. Rather, we get Eastern Christians defending Robert Sweiss and calling him a man of God. Mind you, this came *after* Robert Sweiss wrote that the Catgolic Church is NOT Apostolic.

I honestly do not understand you folks. I, a Roman Catholic, consider you brothers and sisters in Christ and am a member of your family. I would die for our faith. Mr. Sweiss and his Church, on the other hand, considers you unfortunate problems that must disappear. Yet, I am the bad guy. When are you ever going to realize that you are cutting your own throats by pushing your Catholic brethren away while embracing those who don't even consider you or your Church Apostolic.

You people honestly, HONESTLY, wonder why the Western Catholics don't know or care more about their Eastern Catholic Brethren. With this kind of interaction why should we?

I don't even know why I come back to this board and try, he says as he walks away . . . . .

Rob

I think that all of Rob's posts above are well taken. While we must pursue and defend our Greek Catholic and Eastern traditions we must also do so of the Universal Catholic Church. Below is what I was going to post before our Administrator asked "Rum Orthodox" to no longer post. I am glad he did and offer my comments below, after the fact, but still true, I believe.

St. Nicholas, Patron of the Greek Catholic Church, pray to God for us sinners!

Fr. Joe
_____________________

I'm sorry but no matter what else Rum Orthodox may write that is so inspiring, his comments on this thread are not and serve to discredit him. Everyone knows that it is not Great Lent for Orthodox yet. We should not be petty. And to make the remark "Is that how you refer to your Host from the chalice?! Goonie goo-goo to you as well." is sacrilegious and highly insulting. If you do not consider our Eucharist to be "efficacious" you must still refrain from desecrating it with such words.

If you are going to participate in a constructive way in this forum, then you need to be respectful and refrain from insulting other people's beliefs and practices. We all know that there are differences between Catholic thought, mainline Orthodox interpretation and the attitudes of "hyper-Orthodox such as you, Rum Orthodox, who cannot see past their own small mindedness and who must further resort to criticism, sarcasm and insults towards those who differ with themselves. Isolationists such as you must live in fear of themselves or have such a fragile self-esteem and level of faith that you cannot live according to your so-called "style of Christianity" without bashing everyone who dares to differ with you. This is an occasion real pity.

Your writing is not becoming, not civilized and certainly not Christian, although I'm sure you won't consider me a Christian because I don't ascribe to your stringent brand of "Orthodoxy."

Those who have responded to Rum Orthodox's attacks are not acting against charity but are, as correctly stated, defending their church and their system of beliefs against unsolicited and unwarranted insults and desecration of everything sacred to us. I agree with Rob Osborn, to sit back and allow ignorant comments to pass without comment is not productive nor shows great conviction. We have an obligation to set the record straight and try circumvent the perpetuation of such distasteful attitudes.

I for one will do so and honestly, have no tolerance for those who display such weakness and small mindedness as we have seen here. I don't know how someone with a blatant lack of charity and sense of disdain for other's beliefs could even be cable of anything spiritual. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in hardened hearts that must exalt themselves at the expense of others.

Please, this is making us all very tired and uninspired. The Administrator has already spoken about those who employ such derogatory comments, terms and remarks, so if you want to continue to participate, be an adult and simply follow the standards and procedures that this forum maintains.

Fr. Joe

Sorry,

I erred in involving myself in this disagreement.

I have spent so many years with the Quakers that I have the bad habit of assuming other people of faith respond to conflict in the "Friendly Way."

Different gods and different values.

My error, not yours.

Take care, friends.

Ephraim

I agree with all that Fr. Joe has written and especially that Rob's posts are well taken. It appears to me that the most strident and disagreeable posters on this board are those with axes to grind and who have moved into either Byzantine Catholicism or Orthodoxy because of problems (real or perceived) with the Latin Church. I, for one, would prefer if these folks would reconcile their problems before coming to us. We seek people who seeking Christ and find Him in our witness rather than just seeking refuge from something they do not like in their former jurisdiction.

Rob's posts are always charitable. I offer one comment. The question he has asked ("Would you side with the East or would you side with the Catholic Church?") makes no sense to Byzantine Catholics. Everything we believe is already fully Catholic. To us the question you are asking appears as: "Would you side with the Catholic Church or would you side with the Catholic Church?" It raises suspicion in our minds that you might be one of those people who believe that the Roman (Latin) Catholic Church is really the only Catholic Church and that somehow we Byzantine Catholics are something less than real Catholics. Being fully Orthodox and fully Catholic are not mutually exclusive. Even if certain individuals who are Eastern Catholic should make a decision to formally enter the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church has made clear that they have a right to do so and that by doing so they in no way jeopardize their salvation.

[Bob Sweiss? Rum Orthodox is Bob Sweiss? Isn't "Orthoman" Bob Sweiss?]

No sir!!!!

OrthoMan

Dear Administrator,

I don't doubt the truth of what you're saying, since you are more knowledgeable about these things, but where can I find documentation of this? I would really like to read it myself, because it could really put me at ease about a few things...where can I find this statement/idea somewhere more authoritative than this Forum? Thanks for your help, and God bless you for your work here!

(For some reason, I've been addicted to smileys on this Forum... )

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Administrator:

"Rob's posts are always charitable. I offer one comment. The question he has asked ("Would you side with the East or would you side with the Catholic Church?") makes no sense to Byzantine Catholics. Everything we believe is already fully Catholic. To us the question you are asking appears as: "Would you side with the Catholic Church or would you side with the Catholic Church?" It raises suspicion in our minds that you might be one of those people who believe that the Roman (Latin) Catholic Church is really the only Catholic Church and that somehow we Byzantine Catholics are something less than real Catholics."

Dear Administrator,

Thank you for pointing this out to me. I don't think that the Latin Church is the only Church. Rather, I do believe that we, Byzantine and Latin Catholics, are all one big and diverse family. That's why I come here in the first place, to learn about my "cousins" who I don't get to see as often as I would like. What I *don't* like to see, though, is when my cousins think they need to placate a group of folks who don't even consider them Apostolic Christians at the expense of alienating "family". I don't know if that makes sense. The thrust of my comment "Would you side with the Catholic Church or would you side with the Catholic Church?" revolves my own experience on this forum and others where, at the first opportunity, Eastern Catholics have joined the ranks, in debates, with Orthodox Christians. There are very pro-Orthodox Eastern Catholics on this very board. Why would they be pro-Orthodox? Why not be pro-Catholic?

"Being fully Orthodox and fully Catholic are not mutually exclusive."

You're right. That certainly is the case *in the Catholic Church*. However, see if you find the same luxury in the Orthodox Church. I don't know of one Catholic who doesn't glory in the fact that we, Eastern and Western Catholic, are brothers and sisters. That is beautiful and I wouldn't want you folks to be any other way. However, all too often our Orthodox brothers and sisters still refer to Eastern Catholics as *uniates*. I would never do this nor would me friends. Given that, who do you really think loves you more and respects you more and actually enjoys the fact that you are a part of the family?

"Even if certain individuals who are Eastern Catholic should make a decision to formally enter the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church has made clear that they have a right to do so and that by doing so they in no way jeopardize their salvation."

Of course not. Their salvation is in no way jeopardized by such a move. Perhaps, though, it might be better for some Rome hating Eastern Catholics to become Orthodox rather than remain in the Catholic Church while despizing everything within it. I guess that's the rub, the Eastern Catholics who are more *orthodox* than the Orthodox Christians who dislike and speak poorly about the Holy Father and the Latin Church.

That's where the question arose from.

Still hoping that there's some room for dialogue between family members on this board.

Peace,

Rob

Ephraim,

Obviously, if you have read the comments that followed my post to the board, I was not so far off in taking Robert Sweiss to task.

"Friendly way"? Sometimes, a friendly way cannot be found. If you have spent any time on this forum at all you know that Robert Sweiss really doesn't have much respect or charity for Eastern Catholics or Catholics in general. I have seen way too many of his uncharitable posts to just let them pass. By the way, was Jesus being friendly when He threw the money changers out of the temple?

Differents gods? I don't know about you but I worship the Trinity.

Peace,

Rob

Dear Orthoman,

Sorry about that, Chief!

But being mistaken for Bob Sweiss is no disgrace, let me assure you!

God bless,

Alex

Dear Rum Orthodox (Bob),

My response to you was both serious and less so, in trying to understand where you are coming from.

I have been personally faced with the kind of anger you express so many times here that if I decided to "go to my room" and close the door each time I felt that way, I'd never be here.

I know I've tried to leave here because of that, but the spiritual benefits of this remarkable Forum by far outweigh angry snits by anyone and the realization of that was, for me, a great learning experience that only recently dawned on me, again through the advice and guidance of the Administrator.

Our parish priest once said in a sermon that people tend to lose their heads when it comes to religion.

I hope that is not true in all contexts. But certainly we must learn to speak to one another in a civil and respectful way.

I have angry memories about religious persecution as well as you. But the Gospel of Christ is what takes us above that - as you yourself have admitted in any event.

My point was not to patronize you and if that is how I sounded, I apologise.

I wanted to cut you some slack and see what underlies the anger in your posts, knowing you to be otherwise a spiritual man.

We must all deal with our anger in the Spirit of Christ.

Alex

[But being mistaken for Bob Sweiss is no disgrace, let me assure you!]

I absolutely agree. I was just correcting, not criticizing. I agree with many things Bob says.

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

As do I, save and except for some unfortunate expressions that resulted in the removal of the presumption of togetherness in cyberspace.

Alex

I had not heard of this. This is REMARKABLE!

Does this "exercise of economy" (for lack of a better term) extend to Latin Catholics who opt for Orthodoxy?

Would you please provide a reference to the document that states this?

Many thanks!

I think it would be a misunderstanding to say the Catholic Church gives permission ("Father may I?") to switch communions. I think the Catholic Church understands that in some cases, Eastern Catholics know only of eastern forms of worship and therefore it is understandable for them to do so when impediments exist towards the practice of eastern Catholicism.

Catholic authorities have also suggested that participation in Protestant churches may be understandable for Latin Catholics in certain circumstances.

It would seem odd for a Latin Catholic to enter the Orthodox Church.

Axios