www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Marian Dogma - Defining too much

I personally believe think that question is irrelevant, because
she would have never said No. God knew it of course, and
that was not even an issue. For Hypothetical Sititation, i say,
if she said know God would have asked another women worthy
of being the Theotokos. That is irrelavent too. Because
Jesus is God and he created his mother, so thats not even worth
thinking about.

In Christ +
Daniel

Dear Daniel,

Actually, no - God always knew what Mary's answer would be, but He made His Son's Incarnation contingent upon the exercise of Her free will.

And her free will was so completely submitted to that of God, of course!

God allows us our exercise of free will as well. He knows the choices we will make - that is truly all a great mystery.

It seems to come down to the fact that all Grace comes from Christ, God the Word Incarnate.

He is the one Who chose to mediate His Grace through His Deified Humanity - that we must accept as Christians, of course.

But the mediation does not stop with Christ. It continues in the Communion of Saints and the Body of Christ.

We too are called to the Priesthood of Christ and we are called to mediate His Grace to the world in our own way, as God calls us to.

In a particular way, the Mother of God mediates all Grace to us, because she mediates the Incarnate God, Jesus Christ, to us Who is the Source of All Grace.

We don't need to define that.

Christians have always believed and celebrated that mystery of our faith.

Alex

Really, Daniel? You're saying first of all that Mary *could not* have said no - does that mean she had no free will? Remember, Eve was created without sin, too, but she DID say no.

Second, you're saying that if Mary had said No, God would have just shrugged, said Okey Dokey and moved on to the next eligible virgin.

Mary was neither a robot nor an incubator. She was created by God to be His Mother - but like Adam and Eve, she DID have the freedom to say "Yes" or "No."

We honor and love her because she chose God.

I meant what you guys wrote, but i find the question either way irrelavent.

In Christ+
Daniel

Nothing that has to do with Christ Jesus is irrelevant.

It's all a Mystery to me!

Dear Mor,
I've heard the the same line of reasoning from Protestants who don't like the title Mother of God - i.e, what about Grandmother of God, etc.
But the special attention given to Mary is truly proper. She is like no other creature, even the most pious of saints, in her relationship to God. Eve bore human children, St. Anne bore a singular human child. Mary bore God incarnate! This is so enormous! A firm belief in Christ as God-man cannot avoid a correlate exhuberant awe and love of his Mother - a creature like us, and yet so unlike us; the exceptional example of what we wish to become. Beyond all others beyond measure.

Hi DJS,
I agree with what you posted here. Every last word.

But it does not follow that this therefore means that she is the Mediatrix of all Graces.

It just doesn't. It is a clear indication of what Mary must mean to us, but nothing else.

I haven't read anything yet anywhere that indicates that Mary should be the Mediatrix of all Graces.

There is a disconnect from the reasons to the resulting conclusion. Sort of unreal logic.

Michael

Nor was any such meaning implied. I was just posting in response to ME's specific line of argument.

As to what should be defined, I have no idea. The last go round on this topic I raised that very question; it had no traction. Strange.

And I am not inclined to get into the general discussion of this thread on what the duty-factor is on the mediation by the never-failing protector of Chrsitians and constant intercessor before the Creator. What could be more stereotypically scholastic (99.46 % pure and mediator of very many but not necessarily all graces? :rolleyes: )

I do find troubling, this effort in some posts here and on other threads to down-play Marian devotion. Hard to comprehend this effort, if what the we say about Christ is truly informing our perspective.

Mor Ephrem,
As you perhaps know doctrine in the Latin understanding developes.
And here we can see this process clearly.
We have a truth and then people try to make more or less out of the teaching than it actually is.
The Church has to pray, reflect, think about it and then define. (sorry we Latins are so methodical)
I suppose we can live with Mystery, but there also has to be clarification exactly because some people go overboard as in this case, I will agree, and understand "mediatrix of all graces" and "co redemptrix" in a heretical sense.

Stephanos I

As a Latin Catholic on his way soon to be Melkite, I would just like to make a quick note on the term Mediatrix of all Graces. I formerly supported the idea of having this defined dogmatically along with many other Traditional Catholics.

I have enjoyed the discussion on this issue but have found interesting the way many try to make it acceptable to all. What many have said is true and would be unobjectionable, but for me and the others I knew who were pushing for the definition what has been said was not what we were asking for. We believed that no grace was granted to the world today except through Mary, some even went so far as to insist that no grace could be given except through Mary's intercession and mediation. Many, though not all, who are calling for the definition of Mediatrix of all Graces desire this belief to be declared. I'm not sure if I'm being clear or not but it is this definition that I believe many are objecting to and would be most damaging in our attempts to reestablish communion between our various churches.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.


Terry

Wow, another Melkite; I'm starting to find that there are quite a number of us here. Welcome to our Church, brother. Can't picture where Perry, NY is; to which parish will you belong?

And,I can't help but wonder at the name, were you named for the geologic feature, the lovely town in Mayo, or himself?

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

I love your title Irish Melkite. No the name I use is one of the two forms of my name Terry in Irish. People found Toirdealbhach a little too much so I started using Turlough instead.

I've found that going to the Melkite church has been somewhat of a homecoming. My studies have convinced me that the early Irish church was quite Eastern theologically. I've been moving this way for years but got sidetracked into a lot of other paths before finding the East.

Perry is located about halfway between Buffalo and Rochester. Southeast from Buffalo and southwest from Rochester. It's about a 45-50 minute drive to my parish of St. Nicholas in Rochester. Surprising how many Irish there are there as well. Though most of them came in through marriage.

I'd be interested in hearing a little of your story as well.

Terry

Terry,

Probably should have pm'ed this - it's a bit off-topic for the thread. My story is simple. I was raised RC but had exposure to Byzantine liturgies (Russian & Ukrainian), since I lived in Boston where Eastern Catholic parishes abounded and Cardinal Cushing, a great friend and benefactor to Eastern Catholics, urged Latin pastors to educate their parishoners and children (long before Popes were encouraging Latins to know us), including having Liturgies celebrated.

As a college freshman, I was involved w/ XP, a Catholic Young Adult organization at a small Latin parish. Because we were very few, we set out to find another parish w/ which to jointly sponsor functions. In doing so, we met and became friends with our counterparts from the then-newly-erected Melkite Cathedral parish.

The (at that time) almost exclusively Lebanese and Syrian community was very welcoming to a red-haired Irish kid. My curiousity about, and fascination with, the Eastern Church was revived. Now, 39 yrs later, my hair is not as red and there's less of it; my Arabic remains limited and mainly useful at the bazaar's food booth; myself and a friend who came here at the same time are no longer the only 'Irishers'; I have now been a Melkite, canonically, for about 35 yrs; and, the Cathedral community is as loving and welcoming now as it was then.

It's been a wonderful 4 decades, I've had the honor and blessing to know HB Patriarch Maximos V and Archbishop Joseph, both of blessed memory, as well as Bishops John and Nick, and many of the Melkite clergy. My spiritual life has been richer than I believe it would ever have been had I continued in the Latin Church.

As a student of Celtic history, I agree w/ your impression that there were Eastern influences in the early Irish Church. I have a strong interest in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches, as well as in independent non-canonical 'Catholic' and 'Orthodox' Churches. (Btw, I envy you your profession, books are my other passion.)

That's about it. God grant you many years,

Neil

Neil, thanks for your faith journey's story. I love to hear how people reach the place that they do. I've started a new post in the Town Hall section hoping to hear from other fellow Celts and how they have made their journey East and why?

Sl�n agus beannacht,

Terry