www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Are the Old Believers considered legitimate?

Hey, everyone, been a while since I've been here! I was wondering - and I just KNOW someone here has the answer - are the Old Believers considered legitimate Orthodox, or are they considered schismatics? The reason I ask, is that I am considering learning how to make lestovka to put on my Chaplets & Chotkis [chotkis.com] store, but as a matter of principle I do not sell prayer beads from non-Catholic or non-Orthodox denominations. For example, I don't sell Anglican rosaries. So, to be consistent, I don't want to sell lestovka if the Old Believers who use them are not considered a legitimate branch of Orthodoxy.

If anyone can tell me whether the Old Believers are considered Orthodox, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!
Tammy

I was hoping someone else would post first, but I will give my opinion. I don't know anyone who challenges the Orthodoxy of those who have priests.

Now I believe that there are Old Believers that have reconciled with Moscow (not sure yet), but I don't have the dope on them. There are also Old Believer Russian Catholics as well (!) and an Old Believer Bishop (Daniel, of Erie) and congregation in ROCOR. All three Groups deserve recognition from the segments of regular posters here, and their praxis and service books are admired (Anhelyna and I both use their Prayer book) all aforementioned could use your services.

There is an Old Believer Metropolitan in Moscow with a large following, that group is strictly Orthodox although I do not know if they are actually in commmunion with the Patriarchate, but a few of their priest candidates are training in MP seminaries.

The Lestovka is a traditional praying devotional from Old Russia anyway, I suspect it predates the schism, but even if it didn't there is nothing heretical about it. Russian Catholics would use it, I think Dr Alex has at least one, even I might like one.

+T+
Michael

Dear Tammy,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I DO know that Eastern Christian Supply (a supplier of Orthodox church goods and devotional items) sells lestovka.

I wear an Old Believer cross, btw, that I got from Gallery Byzantium: www.gallerybyzantium.com [gallerybyzantium.com]
It's really beautiful, with real cultured pearls around it. :-)

I checked out your link, and your chotkis are beautiful! Wow!

God bless,

Karen

Thank you both for your input! I think I will learn how to make a lestovka, then.

Does anyone know where I can get a cheap one in order to figure out how they are made? I think the cheapest I have seen on Eastern Christian Supply is somewhere around $85, and I just can't afford that right now.

Tammy

I made a lestovska once which was basically a strip of leather, which I put 100 folds in, put a bead at the top and bottom of each fold, and attached four triangles at the base.

I don't know howa set of beads can be unorthodox; at any rate my understanding is that lestovskas are another form of the prayerrope used for a long time in praying the Jesus Prayer, etc.

As to whether Old Beleivers are orthodx (small o),I would say if you can class the SSPX as orthodox then you would have to classify even priestless old beleivers as so. Much like the SSPX they objected to the liturgical reforms because of what they thought they symbolised. Even if certain groups of Priestless later adopted some stranger tenets, they were not held by the Priestless at large. I would thus say that most Old Beleivers while in some cases in schism are certainly orthodox.

Having said that, I would be slow to judge any individual in this area. I would not be too dismissive of Anglicanism. There are shades of it not represented by the Episcopalians in the USA. Remeber it gave us CS Lewis, Cardinal Newman etc. And just what on earth is an Anglican rosary? Just a RC one made by Anglo-Catholics? (Just jesting).

Hope this is helpful,

N

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I've never run across anyone who maintains that those Old-Ritualists who retain the Holy Mysteries, the three-fold Hierarchy and so forth are not Orthodox. It's a big world, so one could probably find someone somewhere to disagree - but that can be said of any Church.

Moreover, Bishop Daniel and his congregation in Erie, Pennyslvania, are members in good standing of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, and no one seems to question their Orthodoxy.

There are also priests, parishes and faithful of the Moscow Patriarchate who follow the Old Rite - they've produced a rather nice recording of the Divine Liturgy for Pascha, incidentally.

And, of course, there are Greek-Catholics who follow the Old Rite.

So there's no reason to exclude the Lestovka - except, of course, that it's a lot more trouble and expense to make one. The Chotki also takes time and skilled hand-work, and the good-quality wool needed doesn't come cheap.

My only problem with the Lestovka and the Chotki is that it is remarkably difficult to hang on to them - as soon as I get one, someone will ask me for it, and that's the kind of request that I don't like to refuse.

Incognitus

Dear Tammy,

Christ is Risen!

The Old Rite is acknowledged by Rome and by world Orthodoxy as legitimate and salvific, to be sure!

The Lestovka itself is not specific to the Old Rite, but became very popular, in the 18th century especially, among many "New Rite" Russian Orthodox.

For example, St Seraphim of Sarov ONLY prayed on the Lestovka and is always depicted holding the Lestovka.

As you know, there are two forms of the Lestovka.

The first form is the one with the divisions of 12, 38, 33 and 17 smaller rungs.

The other is 150 smaller steps divided every ten by a larger one for the praying of the "Rule of the Theotokos."

Could you make me a Lestovka of 150 steps divided every ten by a larger one?

If you can, just name your price! I've been trying to get one of these for some time now!

As for persecution of the Old Believers, when I was in Church on the weekend, I crossed myself with two fingers in the Old Rite way.

My wife looked closer to see what I was doing and then ordered me to "stop that and behave" forthwith!

The persecutions continue - but at least I wasn't burned at the stake . . .

I suppose it is possible, though . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,
Christ is Risen! Just pray to Saint Avvakum and all will be well.

Incognitus

The 'house bishop' rules.

XB! BB!

ICXC
NIKA

I asked once on this forum about Catholic Old Believers, and from the responses I got it seemed that they were on the brink of extinction!
Any good news since then?

Dear Filipe,

Well, I cross myself with two fingers - just my small contribution to reinstating the Old Rite in the UGCC!

But my wife still insists on persecuting me . . .

Alex