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The discussion above about 'dialect', 'diacritical marks', and transliterations is quite fascinating. But it makes me wonder, if we are an American (and Canadian) Church, then why are we arguing about these linguistic elements that are really 'fine points' for native speakers of whatever Slavic tongue? I can read OCS (thanks to Boston College and Harvard Univ.), but I don't know Russian, Ukrainian or Carpathian. So, I can't really follow the fine points. And I ask myself: should I have to? It's really the spirituality, isn't it? (Although as a linguist, I am professionally interested in this!!)

I must, however, comment on the point made about the Carpatho-Ruthenians: when I joined my Ruthenian parish 27 years ago, I heard the unique music and the unique liturgical customs (including the traveling troitse) and it became clear to me that the Ruthenians are INDEED a unique people and not some sort of mutant Ukrainians or Slovaks. And, I'll support the Carpatho-Ruthenians all the way because I can see that they are a unique people and because they (in contradistinction to other Slavic groups) have been incredibly hospitable to outsiders like this wandering Greek. A nation? You bet!!

Blessings!

Then as a linguist, you shouldn't take offense at a few gentle corrections. No offense is intended.


No such language as "Carpathian." You should know it is called Rusyn, if you consider it a language, which many linguists now do.


Ch. Slavonic: trojca / troitsa

Rusyn: trojcja / troitsia


Thanks for your support. I feel the same way about the Greeks. (And I absolutely *loved* "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" - and as a Rusyn I identified with a lot of it. )

Dear Dr John,

I think there's a lot of debate because the topic is fun!

Also, as far as translating the music from the "old language" to the new": no compromise has to be made. Prostopinije is based on patterns which can be perfectly and easily fashioned for English without doing any damage to the text (which, you are right, is the most important part). In fact, every once and awhile I will spontaneously translate Prostopinije into Spanish (which I speak fluently) just for fun (this is in my mind, I don't have that much time on my hands to compose it!!! And I am by NO means even an intermediate-level chanter!)

Byzantine Chant can be easily transferred into English as well--it was transferred into Arabic and Romanian without many problems. When I learn a pattern for Byzantine Chant in Greek (I am studying Byz. Chant with a Greek Chanter), I then try to put it into English to see if I can do it on the fly--if I can, it means I have captured the essence of the tone.

In Christ,

anastasios

CIX!

Dear Tasos,


I'm even nuttier than you. I'm currently working on a Latin translation of Agni Parthene to fit the metre... it's coming along nicely. I think while I'm at it, I should translate the Theotokaria of St Nektarios into Latin too.. or should I do English, since no one's translated it into English yet?

Decisions, decisions.

Yours in Domino,

Edward

English, please! I think it's great that people have interest in certain theological and liturgical texts and are "doing them" in the original. But it would be a great service if renditions in English were available; even if they're not up to the "Harvard Classics" level of translation, their mere availability would be a godsend.

OK, pencils sharpened, ......begin.

Blessings!

Dr. J--

I am an "english" guy and agree with you. My friend and I were discussing how nice it would be to put the Anastasimatario (Greek book of 8 tones for Vespers and Matins in Byzantine Chant) into English. Problem is, which translation to use, and would other chanters accept it, etc. But it will never get done on the official level, at least this century...

That's what's great about learning the patterns of the music first--then you can chant anything in any language!

In Christ,

anastasios

Great! Now that Dr. John is on the job, we'll have "Falls Church Plainchant" in about, maybe three weeks???

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

I'd like to propose an immediate moratorium on any further use of Church Slavonic in the Pittsburgh Metropolia until people (certain choir directors come to mind) learn the difference between "nash" (nas~) and "nas". If I hear "Kol' slaven nas" or "...chlib nas nasus~c~nyj" one more time I'll run screaming into the street. ("nash" (nas~) means "our", and "nas" means "us"...)
*****Please excuse my last attempt to post a reply without the reply! OK, here's the reply: as a RC and newcomer/visitor to our local ByzCath church and a 4th generation Slavic-American who speaks Russian, I am quite interested in the use of Ch. Slav. but immediately noticed that the liturgical service book (pub. by official people, not just some photocopies) had a most unintelligible transliteration that would be impossible for non-slavic-language-speakers to decipher and sing accurately (thus Rusyn's frustration...)...a little better chance for us speakers of Ukr/Russian/Polish/Czech, etc., but still hard. For example, in one hymn the transliterator writes 'vo slavi idet' for 'comes in glory'...but anyone who knows about these things knows that the pronounciation would be 'idYOT' (3rd person, to come), not the apparent 'EEdet' (letter 'yo' = e with two dots over it, which are often omitted in less formal writing or indeed most of the time leading less experienced people to render 'yo' as a simple 'e'; this is why most people think the name of famous icon writer RublYOV is pronounced as usually written, RublEV)). I share the frustration of the member quoted above, but this problem is understandable due to the strange translit'ns made. It's due to different factors such as diff. /arbitrary systems used (same problem in Russian, but not as bad), strange diacritical marks, and also I heard due to different dialects, (heard from a choir member)...but if this is Ch Slav.,isn't that like Church Latin? (i.e., unchangeable)... please enlighten me!

Can anyone in a Byz. Cath Ch confirm what language is normally used in church other than English? Is it maybe some strange Ruth./Ukr. dialect, not Ch Slav.??

Where can I learn more about the actual language used (not transliterated) so that I could sing/pronounce things correctly?

Does anyone know why <if> the language in BCCh truly is Ch. Slav. it differs from all the Orthodox Ch. Slav. I heard recently in my first few Orth. liturgies as well as the beautiful Rachmaninov Lit. of St John Chrysostom? There you hear 'Gospodi' but in Byz. Cath Ch it is strange that they turn all the Gs into Hs, thus 'Hospodi', 'Blahoslavi', etc. - very strange to my ear - almost like lisping the Gs.

Would appreciate hearing any authoritative answers.

-Slavyanskiy

You obiviously aren't familiar with the South-West Rus' (Galician Ukrainian, Kyivian Ukrainian, and especially Subcarpathian Rusyn) recension and pronounciation of Church Slavonic. While Muscovite (Great Russian)and modern Bulgarian pronounciation and recension of Church Slavonic has a "G" sound for "Gospodi and Mnogaja", the South-West Rus' DO NOT PRONOUNCE THE SOUND AS A "G" BUT AS A "H" SOUND. It is a matter of recension and local pronounciation variations of the Church Slavonic language. Contrary to those who think that the Muscovite Church uses the Great Russian langauage as their liturgical language, they are not. They really are using Church Slavonic rendered in their peculiar Nortnern-Rus' Moscovite recension!

Ung-Certez

I'd concede the point that most people in our churches no longer realize that the transliterated into Latin alphabet "j" is pronounced like "y", nor any idea how to pronounce c~, s~, z~, ch... maybe if we switched to a more phonetic-based transliteration (ch, sh, zh, kh) we wouldn't have as much trouble.


The transliteration is absolutely correct. The problem is that you are imputing the Russian way onto our correct native pronunciation. There are not hard "g"s in words like Hospodi or mnohaja (as Ung-Csertez noted), nor are there unwritten changes of pronunciation the way you've described above. The correct pronunciation of idet for Rusyns and Ukrainians is ee-det.


Buy a cassette of the Liturgy from St. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Presov, Slovakia:
http://www.iarelative.com/music/sacred.htm

You can listen to part of it here:
http://www.lemko.org/lvpro/liturhia.html

This seems to have been responded to rather well but I would like to add the following.

Indeed there are many who cannot pronounce Church Slavonic any more. Sad but true. The system of transilteration is based on Slovak and worked well since many BCs came/come from what is now Slovakia. However, nas for nash and similar are at best very abrasive to my ears.

Church Slavonic is pronounced in many ways 'in accordance' with the local Slav language. So those East and West Slavs who use -H- will say "Hospodi" will most others will say "Gospodi" both are right, this is true in Orthodoxy as well, it is not a Catholic phenomenon.

Slavyanskiy your comment about -idyot- as apposed to -idet- is noted. If you refer to Archbishop Alipy's (ROCOR) book on Church Slavonic he makes quite the point that the e=yo is incorrect. Also the 'akanie' of modern Russian is incorrect in Church Slavonic, so 'atets' is wrong, 'otets' is correct. Now these seem to be exceptions to the rule of the local pronunciation influencing Ch. Slav.

The Slavonic texts used in the BC churches are basically the same used in Orthodoxy...they are pronounced differently that is all. Go to a Ukrainian Orthodox parish that celebrates in Slavonic and you will hear the same pronunciation, or go to a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parish to hear the same meoldies even.

Bob

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Bob King ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ung-Certez:
[QB]You obiviously aren't familiar with the South-West Rus' (Galician Ukrainian, Kyivian Ukrainian, and especially Subcarpathian Rusyn) recension and pronounciation of Church Slavonic. While Muscovite (Great Russian)and modern Bulgarian pronounciation and recension of Church Slavonic has a "G" sound for "Gospodi and Mnogaja", the South-West Rus' DO NOT PRONOUNCE THE SOUND AS A "G" BUT AS A "H" SOUND.
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Thank you, all who replied and educated me about these obscure linguistic points. You are all quite the scholars here, it seems. I thought, however, that I made it clear that in fact I do NOT know much about this subject. In fact am in my 3rd week of being exposed to all this from the point of having absolutely no knowledge of Orthodoxy or ByzCath stuff but I can already recite a few of the Slavonic prayers such as 'slava otsu i synu i svyatomu dukhu...', so please give me a break about how I obviously don't know about this. You're right! I don't...but thanks once again for the help.

-Slavyanskiy
-PS - about the comment from another poster about different dialects being used to pronounce the ChSlav texts, that is very interesting...but seems almost as bad as people mispronouncing Church Latin and calling it a dialect. Just an off the cuff thought, not being disrespectful, but seems that it would be good to have it said the same everywhere if possible.

Hospodi pomiluj!

djs