www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News UOC-MP Orthodox Archbishop of Lviv Meets Lefebvrist Abbot

Dear Friends,

While it is true that Blessed Nicholas Charnetsky worked to bring Orthodox into communion with Rome (along with Bl. Basil Velichkovsky), the quite anti-Orthodox sentiments expressed by the above poster and imputed to Bl. Nicholas were quite foreign to the Martyr-Bishops.

For example, and it is too bad the above Fr. Michael Mary didn't take the time to review this, in the biography of Bl. Basil Velichkovsky, there is an outline for those who worked among the Orthodox in his time in Volyn.

At the outset, the bishop states that he prohibits anyone from giving offense to the Orthodox. He also affirms that his missionaries are to receive ALL the Eastern practices of the Orthodox WITHOUT Latin accretions (something that Fr. Michale Mary's movement would, I believe, strenuously oppose) and that even all the local Orthodox saints are to be included for veneration by the Eastern Catholic missionaries (the above movement would oppose the inclusion of "schismatic" saints).

So the offensive nature of Fr. Michael Mary's post with regard to the Orthodox is simply not a reflection of the views of the Catholic martyrs he refers to. It was certainly not a reflection of the views of Met. Andrew Sheptytsky who appointed Bishop Nicholas Charnetsky to his role - and those who say otherwise have just failed to read Met. Andrew's life.

And even by the most strenuous application of the old Tridentine Catholic rules, how is a Catholic becoming Orthodox an act of "apostasy?!"

Fr. Michael Mary would do well to study Orthodoxy before he ventures to open his mouth about it.

Finally, his rude, arrogant and inflammatory manner of posting about both the Orthodox and the Catholic Church today is such so as to be completely unacceptable to anyone of good faith and, most of all, GOOD MANNERS.

One cannot be excommunicated for having bad manners, I know.

That is one area of moral theology I wish the Church would hurry up and do something about.

My apologies to our Orthodox brothers and sisters for having suffered the above insult on this Forum - which I am sure will be dealt with soon.

Alex

Dear Alice,

There are Fatima groups who believe that Our Lady of Fatima's message has to do with bringing Russia into union with the Roman Catholic Church.

Alex

I thought that was the whole point of Fatima.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

No - that was an interpretation given to the devotion by Fatimist groups.

And this is why today the devotion conjures up such negative images of an RC movement designed to convert the Orthodox etc. :rolleyes:

The Fatimist groups of that ilk seem to attach to Fatima a significance on a par with Scripture and Tradition.

Certainly, the Russian Catholic devotion to Our Lady of Fatima contains none of the above anti-Orthodox invective.

I once knew an Orthodox priest who believed in Fatima and who said that her prophecy was fulfilled in Russia today as the Orthodox Church was back on its feet again, people were being baptised, were living the Christian life as members of the Church, etc.

Fr Michael Mary would disagree, however, . . . or so I surmise . . .

Alex

Yes I knew that Alex, but you and I know that isn't what she meant.

Love in Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

And I'm sure She didn't communicate to the children in either Latin or Old Slavonic!

Well, about the Slavonic thing, how do we really . . .

Yassou!

Alex

Tridentines have ruined my hometown parish and now here is one trying to destroy all that has been done to build closer ties with our Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

What will this Archbishop think of the UGCC in L'viv now? Will he look differently at the Catholic bishops in L'viv? Will he be willing to have an open and prayerful dialogue with them?

Here we have this "buffet" priest come along, picking and choosing what he believes, going into the office of the Archbishop and telling him how he thinks the Catholic Church should be, or is.

This is pure evil. I said this a few days ago. Satan is working overtime in Ukraine. Look at the past 80 years. Millions and millions killed for their Faith. Orthodox and Greek Catholic alike. But they held on. But Satan still finds his way to come in and try to ruin all the good that is being done.

Ukraine is plagued with Mormons, Jehovah's, Baptists, Pentecostals, and now Tridentines. These groups prey upon people who have forgotten Christ and His Church in Ukraine.

Eastern Christianity is the Faith of Ukraine. It is what guided her through times of prosperity and times of trouble. But God prevails.

Please, Fr. Mary, do not FURTHER ruin all the good that has been done in the name of Jesus Christ. Please do not go into Ukraine bringing your fringe beliefs and representing that as the true belief of the Catholic Church. Please do not misrepresent the UGCC. Please do not undo the work that is being done. Please do not step on the legacy and sanctity of all those martyrs who died for Christ, in Christ, and for His Church.

But God prevails.

Think of all those Holy Redemptorists who died-- who were crucified, boiled, sealed in walls, poisened, killed, butchered, shot, burned.

When you put that C.SS.R. next to your name, you are representing an Order that has done and continues to do the work of Christ in Ukraine. What your doing is not. When you put that C.SS.R next to your name, it signifies you belong to an Order of Martyrs and Saints. Don't defile all those Redemptorists who have gone before you, especially those in Ukraine.

Your meeting with that Archbishop, I feel, has created further division in Ukraine, and believe me, Ukraine doesn't not need anymore of it.

Please, stay in your monastery or take your work elsewhere.

Spasy, Hospody, liudei Tvoyikh i blahoslovy naslidya Tvoye.

-uc

Dear Father,

Below is the definition of Apostasy taken from http://www.webster.com/dictionary/Apostasy
Main Entry: apos�ta�sy

Pronunciation: &-'p�s-t&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand -- more at STAND
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

I gather from your post that in actuality you believe that the Roman Catholic Church has commited Apostasy since it obviosly does not believe and practice the Faith that it once did. So therefore, Why aren't You Orthodox? You even stated that they have the Liturgical Books that you need but the Post Vatican II Roman Catholic Church makes difficult to obtain. So once again, Why aren't You Orthodox? The Orthodox Church believes exactly the same Faith (although perhaps expresses it differently) as the Roman Catholic Church did before, your favorite word, Apostasy. There are only a few minor differences. Obviously, you must not have a problem with rejecting the authority of Liberal Scumbag Roman Catholic Bishops and Patriarchs, so what's the big deal, Why aren't You Orthodox?

I wish you a Blessed Great Fast.
I hope you discern this great decision well.
In ICXC
NIKA

Dearest in Christ Orthodox Catholic and others who have responded to my posting,

I do accept and celebrate the pure rite of the Divine Liturgy and follow the (Russian) typikon. Our Oriental monks are Ukrainian and Russian Byzantine Rite and a monk from the Syriac rite.

The 'latinised' Ruthenian Divine Liturgy is venerable and valid but I have said it only a few times in Ukraine for a convent of Sisters.

'Schismatic' is a word the Church has used for the Orthodox more often than not since the Great Schism; (presently many fellow Catholics use it on us traditional Catholics; its use does not have to be charged with emotion; but peacefully we believe it is improperly employed in our regard because we do not have a parallel hierarchy or Church structure in opposition to the one appointed by the Holy Father: which is exactly the case of the Orthodox.

Schism and schismatic have precise meanings and it is important to know what they mean.

I do love the Russian people and the Russians who are not in union with the Church; our meeting in Lviv was precisely a meeting of charity and the Archbishop thought enough about it to make a press release. He in turn considers us as schismatic from the Orthodox faith. And we both know where we stand; and it is clear and good and we see no problems there. I understand his point of view. But he did say that he thought they was more in common with us (traditional Catholics) than with the post Vatican II ecumenist Catholics. ....Now what does that mean? What does that say about the success of 'ecumenism' as against plain talking?

You have observed that I probably make errors about our Byzantine rite and tradition. For my part, I humbly invite you to tell us if you are without error in this Great Fast and truly fasting according to the Typikon ....or some 'Latinised', comfortable version of it?...that gives scandal to the 'real' Orthodox in non Western places like Ukraine. You know, are you doing the cold and dry food once a day in the afternoon, preferably evening and oil only on Sat and Sundays? Is that what you're doing? And is it done for 'spacenii doosh nashikh'?

I do not take offence at what you have said of me although I think that you would not dare go as far with anyone who is Orthodox. Please take no offence at my words given with honesty and charity in Christ.

I will remember you well in my poor prayers.
Devotedly,
Fr Michael Mary, C.SS.R.

Alex, here is what the Fatima Family Apostolate says

The link is here [fatimafamily.org] . I believe they are part of the RCC, and it sure sounds to me like conversion to them means converting people to Catholicism. Like I said, everything I've ever heard about Fatima is about "converting" Russia to Catholicism.

Andrew

Father Michael Mary,

Just so you know, you're not the only one who believes the Orthodox are schismatic and that Russia has not been converted as Our Lady of Fatima has asked. I also believe this.

But, with that said, I will tell you that you will get nowhere in this Forum by proclaiming these beliefs. I understand and agree with you, to a certain extent, but you will just be bringing frustrations upon your head if you really are going to try and convince people here. Many of us have decided to agree to disagree on these issues. I firmly believe what I said, but if others simply can't believe the same thing then that is their own issue, and not mine. I'm sure they feel the same about me.

Please don't waste your time on here unless you wish to discuss less divisive topics, because people's minds are pretty much made up!

Wishing you a blessed Lent and asking your priestly blessing,
Logos Teen

Dear Logos Teen
Da Blagoslovit t'ya Gospod +

Dear Teen and FatherMichael Mary,

While I would not be so bold as to speak for the most blessed and ever-virgin Mary, the Theotokos, who I am devoted to, just keep in mind *when* she said that about Russia (and yes, even as an Orthodox, I do believe in the Fatima apparitions)...it was not at the time that all Russia was Christian Orthodox but at the beginning of what was to be the most evil, the most anti-Christian, and the most anti-Church time, with the biggest persecutions of Christians since the first centuries of the establishment of the Church.

Any historian knows that events and exegisis of events, thoughts, ideas, and practices need to be put into the context of their particular times.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Teen Logo,

You really disappoint, you know!

It's up to you what you believe, but then, why are you here on this forum?

And why do you affirm your loyalty to the Catholic Church only to deny what she teaches today about the Orthodox etc.?

Why not join the SSPX or Father Michael Mary's group and be happy?

Alex

Dear Father Michael Mary,

For one thing, your Old Slavonic is pronounced in the Russian language way - so it is far from the "pure" Slavonic!

As you have invited correction, I'll take you up on that, Father!

I too have Redemptorists in my family - Archbishop Volodymyr Sterniuk, C.SS.R the Locum Tenens of the Ukrainian Catholic Church was my great-uncle.

Vatican II had precious little to do with the liturgical languages of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

It was the Holy Hieroconfessor Patriarch Joseph Slipyj who affirmed TWO liturgical languages, one of them being Church Slavonic.

The other is actually NOT modern Ukrainian, but a form of Ukrainian that is very anachronistic - but I"m sure you know that.

Slavonic itself, although formally a "dead" language, is not. It has grown and developed over the years, taking on influences from both Ukrainian and Russian contexts.

The Russian Slavonic was imposed on Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox - this is why we tend to not like it in general, although it is a legitimate liturgical language in our Church.

I understand where you are coming from. I don't accept it, as it is based on the old, monolithic Tridentine model of the Church that has its roots not in the early centuries of the undivided Church - but in the later scholastic reaction against Protestantism that coupled with a certain Papal triumphalism that, as a whole, tended to disparage the Eastern "Rites" and cause our traditions to not be respected.

But you sound like a very sincere man who has committed all to the cause of religion - and that is always refreshing and inspiring to see.

Pax,

Alex