The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
layman matthew, Mizner, ajm, Paloma, Jacobtemple
6,228 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (layman matthew, Roman, 1 invisible), 2,061 guests, and 111 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St Elias in Brampton, Ontario
St Elias in Brampton, Ontario
by miloslav_jc, July 26
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,558
Posts417,861
Members6,228
Most Online9,745
Jul 5th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#371415 11/10/11 05:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979
Member
Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 979

Russian Church Concerned Over Establishment of New Metropolitanates by Greek Catholics


According to representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, the recent establishment of three new metropolitanates of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church will complicate the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in Ukraine. So reported RIA NEWS.

“We are always concerned over activization of Catholics at the territories which are not considered Catholic. Ukraine is not considered a Catholic region. Reforms of the Church structures are an internal matter of UGCC but establishment of metropolitanates is an indication that they strengthen their positions which will inevitably cause tension in the Orthodox-Catholic relations in Ukraine,” stated the Secretary of the Department of External Church Relations, Fr. Dmytro Syzonenko.

Many actions of UGCC in the post-perestroika period are viewed by the Russian Orthodox Church as aggressive expansion to the east, to the canonical territories of the Moscow Patriarchate.

As RISU reported, on 8 November, the head of UGCC, Patriarch Sviatoslav (Shevchuk) stated that 3 new metropolitanates are established. The rise of new metropolitanates is an important step towards the proclamation of the patriarchate of UGCC. “We are going to establish three metropolitanates. Today, in Ukraine, there is only one metroplitanate, that of Kyiv and Halych. This structure of our metropolitanate reflects the state of our Church at the time of the Kyivan Rus. There was one metropolitanate who was de facto the head of the local church and ruled over the bishops of his territory. Obviously, for more than a thousand years, our Church has developed, particularly, in Ukraine. Today, this natural state of development of the Church structure needs improvement. Therefore, to be able to provide better pastoral care to our faithful, by the decision of the Synod of Bishops of UGCC and with the blessing of the Apostolic See, we have established three new Metropolitanates,” said the primate.

According to the patriarch, on 29 November, Lviv Metropolitanate will be proclaimed and on 13 and 22 December, Ivano-Frankivsk and Ternopil Metropolitanate is to be proclaimed. UGCC then will have 7 metropolitanates.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 784
Member
Member
Member
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 784
Perhaps a few years ago, this would have made my blood boil. Now, I just laugh and shake my head in disbelief. I will let the learned and ever eloquent Fr. Taft sum up the whole situation:

"So the Catholic church is never going to persuade the Orthodox to accept the patriarchate?

No, and I don’t think we should even try. To hell with Moscow."

-Fr. Taft.

http://www.natcath.org/mainpage/specialdocuments/taft.htm

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Pretty much anything the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church does will cause "concern" to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 6
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 6
Would not Rome be concerned if the Evangelical Lutheran Church opened up 3 new Bishoprics in Rome, Naples and Florence?

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
Actually, I doubt that Rome would care at all where the Lutheran Church established a bishopric. In fact Rome has been pretty liberal in providing the Russian Orthodox access to worship facilities in Italy.

I am unaware of Rome claiming ownership of any particular territory. The implication of the comment is rather silly.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Likes: 1
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,678
Likes: 1
Totally silly. But so goes it. I'm with Fr. Taft on this one.

Alexis

Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 11/10/11 11:45 PM.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 6
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 6
In 1991 the Russian Orthodox Church, with the support of the communion of Orthodox Churches, reacted strongly to the establishment of Apostolic Administrations in the Soviet Socialist republic of Russia, that is the present day Russian Federation. The Catholic Church was admonished for disrespecting the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate and of the Russian Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church responded that the establishment of these Apostolic Administrations was a pastoral necessity and therefore the Catholic Church was within her rights to do so. The principle line of argumentation is that Catholicism has had an historical presence in Russia, and has the duty to care for those who are of traditional Catholic origins. Similarly many circles within the Catholic Church find difficulty with the idea of ‘Canonical Territory’.

It would seem that a deeper understanding and study of the idea and possible meanings of the term ‘canonical territory’ is essential for any real progress in Orthodox - Catholic relations. It is my firm conviction that the use of this term by the Russian Orthodox Church should be interpreted positively by the Catholic Church and not negatively, for this term essentially affirms the theological and ecclesial identity of Catholicism.

The term ‘canonical territory’

The concept of canonical territory has its roots in the first centuries of Christianity, an era when the Church was seen as one, as consisting of local Churches and of Patriarchal Churches. The ecclesial factor behind this concept is that there can be only one bishop in each local Church identified with a specific geographical area. In other words there can only be one head and one center, not two.

The second element within this concept is the cultural. In the Patristic period, local Churches or dioceses found a unity among themselves in the metropolitan of their geographical area. However this geographical area was identical to a cultural ambient. Consequently the metropolitan See represented the center of a geo-cultural milieu within the catholicity of orthodox Christianity. The metropolitan Sees also found a center of unity in the Patriarchates thus providing a simultaneous cultural-political identity within an ambient of Christian unity.

In the present context the term 'canonical territory is used with respect to those geographical areas in which local Churches with an episcopacy have been established through the missionary efforts of Russian Christianity. The term also quite rightly implies the historical process of the christianization of Russian culture and the essential determination of the Russian world view and the basic Russian conceptions of God, religion, man and the world by Russian Orthodoxy.

The Catholic Church has difficulties in understanding this concept for three reasons. The first is that the Catholic Church accepts the 'American model' of many bishops in the one geographical area. This model has no roots in Apostolic or Patristic traditions, nor in Biblical ecclesiology.

Secondly, the word 'Catholic' has been practically and verbally equated with the concept of the 'Latin Tradition'. Thus the word 'Catholic' is not understood as meaning the 'universality of the Church', but rather as the 'Latin Tradition' and the 'Western Patriarcate'. Due to the efforts of Latin missionaries and their strict adherence to the Roman Rite and to Roman Law and structures, the Latin Tradition strongly penetrated many European and non-European cultures, itself becoming a pan-cultural phenomenon. Historically, however, it has neither respected nor valued these cultures. Fortunately, the suggestions of the Second Vatican Council regarding the establishment of Episcopal Conferences and the various consideration of cultural values have been an attempt to overcome this weakness.

Thirdly, it is very questionable if Latin ecclesiology has any real understanding of a Patriarch. This is due to the absorption of the Western Patriarchal identity within the identity of the Primate.

Canonical Territories in the Catholic Church

However, the Catholic Church does have its own conception of canonical territory, but has failed to provide an adequate term or name for that which is silently present in its history and expressed differently in the various disciplines of Catholic theology. The clearest reference is, to dioceses and diocesan boundaries. The Church has basically divided the Catholic world into different territories of a canonical order called a 'diocese'. A more recent and more general type of division is that based upon 'ecclesiastical boundaries' and 'ecclesiastical regions'.

Canonical <cultural-ritual> Territory

In its Codes of Canon Law there is an implicit recognition of 'canonical cultural territory' or of cultural religious identity. Accordingly, parents who belong to one rite or Christian tradition (the difference between the various Christian traditions is primarily cultural) are to baptize their Children according to the rites of their own tradition. If the Children are baptized according to another rite, in an other tradition, they are automatically considered by Canon Law as belonging to the rite of their parents.

Canonical <missionary> territory

The history of the Catholic Church contains another occasion of canonical division of geographical territories, into canonical missionary territories, governed by Propaganda Fidei. One of the most renowned, occurred in the middle ages due to various political forces at play in the world, when the papacy granted the Lands to the west to Spain and its missionaries and the lands to the east to the Portuguese.

Canonical <cultural-missionary> Territory

One of the aspects behind the problematic phenomenon of uniatism is the very concept of a canonical missionary territory based upon culture and religious tradition. In so far as the Roman Church incorrectly proposed that it is identical with the Mystical Body (Church) of Christ, and all other Christians including the Orthodox were considered to be outside the only vehicle of Salvation. Accordingly it was felt necessary by people of past ages to convert the Orthodox world and bring it to the fullness of Salvation. Thus the Orthodox world was considered as a missionary territory. However, the Roman Church held to the principle that ancient Christian traditions (and cultures) are to be permitted and are deserving of respect. Consequently uniatism was proposed as the way of bringing the Orthodox Christians into the fold of the Catholic Church. This way was to be carried out using the religious and cultural forms of the Eastern Traditions, and not those of the Latin Tradition. Accordingly, there was an affirmation of a cultural canonical territory within the missionary policies of the Catholic Church.

One of the more difficult aspects for present day ecumenicity, is that the Catholic Church continues to recognize this particular form of canonical territory. According to Canon Law, an Orthodox believer who becomes Catholic, does not become a Catholic of the Latin Rite, but is automatically and rigidly considered a Catholic of the Eastern Rite.

Canonical Patriarchal Territory

Within the same code of canon law for Eastern Catholic Churches, there is a section dealing with the territory of the Patriarchal Churches and the power of the Patriarch and synods outside of this territory The canons strongly identify the geographical territory and the rite (religious tradition) proper to the Patriarchate. Likewise the Patriarch has juridical rights and duties regarding the faithful over which he presides, who live outside the territorial boundaries. Within the present ecumenical maturity in Catholic-Orthodox relations, a similiar recognition of the patriarchal territory of the Moscow Patriarchate would be in unison with the ancient Christian principles upon which the formulation of the canons of the Code find their foundation.

Canonical <pastoral> Territory

The reason for the establishment of the Apostolic Administrations for Latin Rite Catholics in Russia is, from a cultural perspective, an implicit recognition of the abstract concept of canonical territory. The Apostolic Administrations were created for the pastoral care of both Catholics and people of Catholic descent living in the former USSR. These people were primarily from German, Polish and, Lithuanian cultural milieus. Likewise the majority of baptized Catholics in Russia, represented in the foreign communities (students, diplomats, business people etc.), living principally in Moscow and St. Petersburg are part of the non-geographical, but rather cultural-pastoral canonical territory of the Roman Church.

Theoretically, the Apostolic Administrations in Russia are essentially respectful of the canonical territory of the Russian Orthodox Patriarchate and the various local Churches through out the Russian geographical-cultural area


The Latin rite community in Russia, should above all be conceived, both internally and externally, as an affirmation of the true catholicity of the Church of Christ, which consists of various religious traditions. The largest two traditions, are respectively, those of the Latin (Catholic) Church and the Russian Church, who have not yet reached the ecumenical climax of full communion between each other.

It is feared that the failure to recognize the Russian Orthodox claim of canonical territory is based on a pre-Vatican II ecclesiology. As we have seen, within the Church of Christ there are canonical divisions into various geographical and non-geographical territories. If the Orthodox Churches are a part of the Church of Christ they have a right and a duty to assert their canonical territories and the boundaries of the same. A failure to acknowledge this right, suggests a similar failure to accept the principles of the Second Vatican Council and the posterior evolution in ecclesial and ecumenical understanding.

Accordingly, it is felt that the more the Roman Church comes to a clearer conception and appreciation of the concept of 'canonical territory', the easier it will be to overcome the real cultural and quasi-political obstacles which have been hindering growth towards full Christian accord between Western and Russian Christianity.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 8
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 8
The Russian Orthodox, that is, if they really think that Catholics are trying to convert Orthodox Christians to Catholicism, should simply redouble their efforts to convert Catholics to Orthodoxy.

Simply complaining about the actions (real or imagined) of Catholics will not have a positive end.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
The nomenklatura of ROC-MP seems incapable of grasping and embracing the fact that we're now in a religiously pluralistic and diverse world. Until they do, they're gonna remain rigidly locked in that characteristically Orthodox siege mentality and continue considering and presenting themselves as victims.

And after all their connivance with an atheistic government in the attempted destruction of the UGCC! Of all the nerve.

Last edited by sielos ilgesys; 11/11/11 11:02 AM.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
incapable of grasping and embracing the fact

This is it right here. When somebody lives in a dream world, you can sure try to be nice about it, but your really can't make decisions around their delusions.

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Would not Rome be concerned if the Evangelical Lutheran Church opened up 3 new Bishoprics in Rome, Naples and Florence?
I don't think Rome worries much about Lutheran churches in Italy. [thelutheran.org]

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Member
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 458
Just my humble opinion, but I think it might be best to stop pointing figures at other Churches (those not in Communion) in regards to canonical territory when Churches in Communion, e.g. Russia and Constantinople, cannot even agree on canonical territory.

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
For the record, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Italy [chiesaluterana.it] hasn't got any bishops. It's worth remembering that with Lutherans bishops are an optional extra.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
I think the issue is eastern Catholic, not Catholic in general. If new Latin dioceses were set up in Russia (let alone Ukraine), I don't think the ROC would care - it would see this as the equivalent of its own parishes in latin territory, and probably the same number of people would go to Latin Churches in Russia as go to a Russian Church in some small town in Germany (or to the Moscow patriarchate Church in Sydney, i.e. nobody). Patriarch Kyrill gets on pretty well with Bishop Joseph Werth by all accounts.

Basically the Orthodox position is eastern Orthodox churches are the continuation of the pre-schism eastern Churches, and the Catholic Roman Church is the continuation of the pre-schism Roman Church. The eastern Catholic Churches have no position in its scheme.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
Basically the Orthodox position is eastern Orthodox churches are the continuation of the pre-schism eastern Churches, and the Catholic Roman Church is the continuation of the pre-schism Roman Church. The eastern Catholic Churches have no position in its scheme.


I don't disagree that many Orthodox might take this position, but it is faulty and illogical, as any rational and honest man can see.

Let us consider.

The Ukrainian bishops who came into the union with Rome are obviously the continuation of the pre-schism Church. They were so in the period immediately before they came into union with Rome, and they continued to be in the moments after, for in that case they were the same men. When Moscow set new bishops in their places, it was Moscow that set up bishops in opposition to the historical continuity.

Some will say that when those bishops broke communion with Orthodoxy at signing Brest, they ceased to hold their positions. Well, okay. But if you take that view and you want to be consistent, then when Rome broke communion with Orthodoxy, you will have to say that the Pope and all the Latin bishops ceased to hold their positions too.

If the Roman bishop is the legitimate continuation of the episcopacy in his see, of the pre-schism Church, without regard for moving in and out of union with Constantinople, then the UGCC bishops are the same in their sees.

In fact, if the Russians want to be consistent, they ought to put their man in the position of Pope of Rome, and be done with it. If, on the other hand, they imagine a time however distant, when Orthodoxy and Catholicism will be in communion again, they have no business griping about the sees of Western Ukraine, who simply stepped up the timeline.


Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2025 (Forum 1998-2025). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0