www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Can we pray someone out of hell?!

I have heard it said that death confirms one's eternal state because one does not have free will after death. Therefore, there is no repentance after death. The state of the soul is determined at death because its decision is final. It is not so much that God's love does not extend into hell. It is that the person has chosen to turn away from God's love, definitively, so that repentance simply isn't possible. The person damned is so because of their choice, confirmed in death, not because God has passed sentence upon judgement.

Now, I have no idea what the theology is behind this. I've heard it often enough, but don't know where this idea originates, or if it is even "orthodox".

Does anyone have any comment on this? Is this consonant with the beliefs of the Eastern tradition?
Thanks.

Not to mention the presumption that "time" anywhere in the afterlife ticks away concurrently with us here on Earth, if it even exists there at all in a way we would recognize it.

Since free will is an attribute of the divine nature with which man was endowed by God when He made man in his image and likeness, how could that attribute be taken from us by death?

It depends on your view of scripture as to whether it is speculation.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

I wouldn't call it a speculation so much as a pious desire, one for which Gregory of Nyssa prayed, which makes it fine in my book.

Yes, this is a good point. So the question becomes, can we repent after death? Or more importantly, does anyone repent after death?

We can retain free will. Then doesn't this, then open up the possibility that one can reject God in Heaven, and thus can consign themselves to hell, even after they have been saved?

I think that the answer to this scenario should probably be the same answer to the scenario about repentance in hell, don't you think?

I don't know the answer. I'm looking for the wisdom of you, Stuart, as well as the others here, who often have much greater insight than me.

thanks

There are answers and speculations in greater detail to this question (including posts from a priest) at the beginning of this thread...

Alice

Rather than speculate, I prefer to pray that God makes it so.

God cannot make so, as God has deigned otherwise and he does not change his mind. The teaching of both the theologians and the Church on this point is quite clear, after we die we either go staight to hell, straight to heaven or to heaven via purgatory and we remain in that state for all eternity. The teaching is De Fide.

Christ is in our midst!! He is and alwasy will be!!

I'm glad that the God I know and love in Jesus Christ is a lot greater than the one you have described. God changed His Mind when Jonah walked through Ninevah for one example of this possibility. You see, mercy is at the heart of the Almighty's appraoch to us. And thank Him by His Holy Name or there wouldn't be anything like the Mystery of Confession wherein we all get a fresh start time and again.

I'd also like to know where you get the assertion that the Church teaches people go straight to Hell. Actually the Church teaches there is such a place but is very circumspect about speculating whether anyone has already landed there. So may I suggest you be careful of the sin of presumption in some of these areas.

Scripture has it somewhere as a question as to who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor or confidant. I, for one, don't claim to be so wise and am extremely grateful that mercy is His second attribute after love.

Bob

"and he (God) does not change his mind".

yeah He does. In the OT eating pork was forbidden; in the NT, it's allowed. God commanded all sorts of hair-raising bloody atrocities in the OT but in the NT, He forbids them.

Catholicism & Orthodoxy are the most optimistic relgions I know of, except when detoured off the track by human folly. I admit I entertain proclivities toward the apokatasis but I realise I don't have a doctrinal leg to stand on in this regard. All I have is pious hope.

You're going to get yourself nowhere in an argument with Stuart (nor with a great many other posters here, including me), by giving a lecture about what Rome says is De Fide. I assure, you, he's quite aware of which beliefs Rome has declared to be De Fide, as are most Catholic posters here (and a great many who are not Catholic). St. Gregory of Nyssa, among others, hoped for the salvation of all, and, well, he's a saint. I will continue to hope for and believe in universal reconciliation, in spite of what Rome has to say on the matter.

I think the vision Elder Ephraim had was of the lower parts of Purgatory, where souls sit at the gates of hell. I read a book called ''hungry souls'' and I am correct a friend came to a friend and said ''stop praying for me, I am in hell''.

Mystics are usually a law unto themselves. St.Symeon the theologian had many crazy ideas that it's a amazing how he managed to retain his sainthood. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware said this in his 12 dvd set on mystical theology.

Origen had the mad idea that even the devil will be redeemed at the end of the world.

St.Gregory of Nyssa seems to think we can pray for the souls in hell. But all of these sayings of the fathers such as the above were just an example of the extent of the gift of love they were given however much possibly misguided maybe?

I dunno but I would tend to disagree with Elder Ephraim that he prayed someone out of hell.

Wheely.

Coming in late to this discussion, but a couple observations.

1. God definitely doesn't "change his mind." Scripture speaks this way, but this is for our benefit, we cannot actually understand what this means except that we know God is unchangeable. That's really fundamental theology. God, when he forbade certain things in the Old Law, always knew they would not be forbidden in the New Law. He didn't "change His mind" because He doesn't learn, or grow, or make mistakes. He *always knew* that those in Nineveh would repent, and the "changing of His mind" is our way of seeing it, but God is un-changing.

2. So the eternity of Hell and eternal damnation is a revealed dogma, and God cannot change his mind. If Gregory of Nyssa prayed otherwise, I imagine it was because of his love and because this wasn't clear then. But I can hardly believe he would doubt this even though the teaching has become so clear since the time of the early Fathers. Perhaps he was just wrong.

If we can really follow Gregory of Nyssa on this over the clear teaching of the Church, why can't we follow some of Augustine's crazy ideas over the Church, and so on and so forth?

My view: believing in eternal Hell is difficult, but it's revealed, so I accept it. Also, God is glorified not only in His Mercy but also in His Justice.

Finally, I think we do have free will after we die, but nothing will change that free choice we make here in our lives on earth. The damned in hell freely choose to reject God and there is no time in Hell, they will eternally choose this. Those in Heaven have a free will perfected in Love and it is impossible for them to use their free will wrongly and reject God. They are still free, in fact moreso than we are.

Poster: danman916I have heard it said that death confirms one's eternal state because one does not have free will after death. Therefore, there is no repentance after death. The state of the soul is determined at death because its decision is final. It is not so much that God's love does not extend into hell. It is that the person has chosen to turn away from God's love, definitively, so that repentance simply isn't possible. The person damned is so because of their choice, confirmed in death, not because God has passed sentence upon judgment.

Now, I have no idea what the theology is behind this. I've heard it often enough, but don't know where this idea originates, or if it is even "orthodox".

Does anyone have any comment on this? Is this consonant with the beliefs of the Eastern tradition?

Give glory for God's Mercy!
In this response, I'm giving my personal impression, based on what I been taught, have read in what I consider credible, and Scripture.

I agree with Stuart that God doesn't take away free will. Your comment that one CHOOSES to reject God and chooses Hell compliments the argument that God's gift of free will continues through eternity. Consider someone who is bitter--they continue to get more bitter as time goes on, even though they know its making them miserable. And the more miserable they are the more bitter they get. I have experienced miserableness through painful toothaches. Surely the pains of Hell are hundreds of times more painful. So it is natural to assume they hate God in proportion to their suffering and fall deeper and deeper into the Abyss, rather than rising up out of it.

Scripture is neither Eastern nor Western, but the word of God. I don't know how Christ's parable, "The Rich Man and Lazarus" (Lk 16:19-31) could be any more explicit describing the finality of what most of us consider "Hell." So then, I have to call it neither Eastern nor Western theology, but Christian teaching. We have both eastern and western "theologians" who teach either no hell or a limited hell, but these are slim minority impressions to which we should not place great attachment. However, they do make interesting conversation and forum subjects.

Does this help your reflection?