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Dear Serge,

Speaking of Chotki, I have an Old Believer "Lestovka" or "Vervitsa" made of leather and like it very much.

Is the Lestovka something that would have been limited to Old Believer use only, or would all Russian Orthodox Christians use it as well. I have seen icons of St Seraphim where he has a Lestovka.

The Old Believers also have a "Bogarodytcha" Lestovka, 150 steps divided every ten with a larger step or wrung on which they say the Rule of the Mother of God (aka Rosary).

Alex

Dear Alex,

I know the lestovka is an Old Believer variant; I�ve seen a Moscow Patriarchal priest with one if that helps. I haven�t seen it much, though. The shop at that priest�s church had some for sale.

Yes, the Rosary by other names exists among the Russians, even the Old Believers!

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-14-2001).]

Dear Serge,

Thank you for that information - yes it does help.

I just love my Lestovka. I used to shy away from it because I couldn't wrap it around my wrist.

But now since I have learned that that practice is out, there's no problem!

You wouldn't know the Rule of Jesus Prayers to replace the Horologion or Chasoslov, would you?

Alex

Dear Alex,

Do you mean the Optina Rule of 500? At home I have a leaflet in Russian describing it.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

Dear Serge,

Yes indeed!

Alex

Dear in Christ Alex,

God Bless you!

The Optina 500, prayer rule, was not meant as a substitute for the Prayers of the Hours. It is used as part of the private prayer rule of many monastics and some laity who have monastic spiritual fathers, or mothers Sharon!

What you are asking about is the Hesychast Typicon, which goes back to the days when the monks were illiterate and could not read or chant the Hours. The Hesychast Typicon is said using a prayer rope in this manner:

6 x 300 for Vespers

3 x 300 for Compline and each Hour

12 x 300 for Matins

That is the prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" would be prayed 1800 times for vespers, 900 times for Compline and each of the other Canonical Hours, and 3600 times for Matins.!!!
WITH PROSTRATIONS!!!

I think keeping the regular Cycle of Services is better and richer in all the layers of hymns and prayers throughout the Liturgical Year. Of course if you are unable to read the other is an option....or if you are traveling and cannot bein Church for Vespers etc. it would be a pious option.At any rate I would ask your confessor or spiritual father first.

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Alex (Orthodox/Catholic), as a teacher I am really moved by your story of the student and his reaction to you.

I would suggest: it wasn't the chotki or other prayer rope that influenced him. It was more likely your actions as a teacher and (I'm assuming) your straight-forward dealings with the kids that knocked him off his 'atheist' pedestal into a real interaction with another Christian person.

You should be very proud (in a good Christian way, of course!) of your teaching abilities and you ability to deal with kids. (Strange animals that they are!!)

Keep up the good work!

Blessings!

Father Kyrill, Bless!

I do not know how to thank you, Reverend Father in Christ, for this precious gift that you have given me!

And I have just received in the mail my new Roumanian, wrap-knot prayer rope which I will put to good use in fulfilling the Rule as you have described it.

May I beg your counsel on another matter? During Lent, I want to fulfill as much of the Horologion as possible.

I know this is difficult for a lay-person. What would you say would be a "priority" in terms of what should be done, psalmody, hexapsalm, Canons.

Kissing your Right Hand, I again
implore your blessing, Reverend Father,


Alex

Dear Dr. John,

Thank you for your kind note!

I had a lot of fun with my students and am considering going back some time.

The school itself had a lot of problem children and the Principal was quite the disciplinarian.

She thought of me as a "pushover" and so roamed the hallways to see what class I was teaching so she could barge in to yell at unruly students.

But everyone was somehow always quiet. When she rushed in ready to pounce, we all just turned to look at her as if to say, "May we help you?"

I think the teaching of religion or, as the Eastern Church says, the "Law of God" must be fun and we must give freedom to students to be themselves. I am moved to tears when I see my former students in Church these days, week after week. Their parents are happy too!

God bless,

Alex

Doxa!


Orthodox Catholic,

Since the original topic of the thread included Old Believers, hopefully my post is not out of place here.

Here are my questions:

Are there, within Ukraine, Orthodox communities that are similar to the Old Calendarists, Traditionalists, etc., and that share the same "world view" of those of us who are of that tradition and live in the US, Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc?


Are any of them communalists, pacifists,etc., and are they social separatists like the Mennonites, etc.,?


Are there similar Catholic communities in Ukraine?


Are any or many of these groups serving the needs of Soviet-era disabled veterans? (Afghanistan war veterans.)

I bow to the spirit of Christ within you and thank you for your consideration.


Slava!

Vasili



[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 02-15-2001).]

Father Kyrill,

Father, bless!

Yes indeed, there are monastic spiritual mothers as well as fathers. (Darn few of either 'round these parts, unfortunately...) Please forgive the omission - care to assign a penance?

Incidentally, when negotiating the purchase of my current chotki from the unnamed beloved and holy monk who runs the gift shop at an anonymous monastery in the Mojave, he mentioned that it was from Mt. Athos, and "made from monks." The works of the Lord are wondrous - as must be the retting and spinning process involved here!

Cheers,


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

My dear, precious Friend Vasili,
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Please forgive me my earlier indiscretion and I implore your indulgence and forebearance with me a sinner!

There are a number of such groups, as you describe, and who do charitable work since this is so important a consideration given the poverty of that area.

A number of these have ties to the Ukrainian communities in the Diaspora where they get funds from, especially the Children of Chornobyl.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church has a number of outreach charities. My aunt has, before her eyes gave out, collected money for veterans of the Afghan war. That is a great tragedy, those wounded soldiers are in dire straights.

This is why I have a problem with western Protestant groups going in there and luring people away from their historic Orthodox and CAtholic Churches with promises of material help and support.

A cousin of mine has already been duped in this way. Her mother assures me that she is only "pretending."

In terms of traditionalist groups, there is a group in the Ukrainian Catholic Church that is very "Orthodox" and Byzantine. They even call themselves "Orthodox in union with Rome." There are Ukrainian Old Believers and Orthodox, but owing to the current infighting, as you correctly observed, "who will win" is more important than "how we live (in Christ)."

But I have met holy priests, nuns and laity who do the work of Christ quietly and with hearts aflame with love and compassion for suffering humanity!

Please accept these words
from your unworthy servant,

Alex

Dear in Christ Alex,

It is God Who Blesses!

I am happy that my contribution was meaningful to you.

It should not be expected that laypeople who have all the considerations of family, job and the like, to conform to the monastic observances of the Horologion, but during Great Lent we are expected to do a little more than is usual. First of all, if your church is near you should make every effort to attend the Presanctified Liturgies, if they are offered on Wednesdays and Fridays. As far as personal prayer , other than what one would do normally ( Morning and Evening Prayer) you might be able to add a few Psalms. Remember that the Psalms and the Prayer of Jesus were the staple of even early monastic prayer life before all the formation and regularization of the Horologion came about. If you have a Psalter you could use the Kathismas as a guide, perhaps praying one section at each prayer time, or one Kathisma if you have the time. To actually perform the enter Horologion is a real "balancing" act with about four books and much page turning. Keep your prayer life simple and you will not disappoint yourself. If you make it complicated and exacting, and you for some reason are prevented from it, it can become a great burden and even an occasion for sin. Do not load yourself up like a camel on caravan, but rather like the gazelle be light and leap through the desert.

unworthy servant

+Kyrill

Reverend Father Kyrill, Bless!

Thank you very much for your inspired words, especially for your reference about leaping through the desert.

My heart is already dancing!

In Christ,

Alex

Father, bless.

If you have a Psalter you could use the Kathismas as a guide, perhaps praying one section at each prayer time, or one Kathisma if you have the time.

I found the kathismas (kathismata � is that right, Greeks?) listed on www.pomog.org [pomog.org] and have that linked to my website. I sometimes do it, just as you suggest, Father � it�s perfect for those who want to be all-Byzantine but miss the Roman breviary or the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

Keep your prayer life simple and you will not disappoint yourself.

AMEN!

It is probably beneficial Anglican and Roman Catholic influence, but I prefer a mix of ritual prayer (such as the Orthodox trisvjatoje/trisagion opening prayers), one or more psalms replacing Psalm 50/51 in the standard Orthodox setup, some contemplative repetitious prayer (the Rosary � in the Byzantinized form I describe on my site � or the &#0269;�tki, just five sets of 10 [sound familiar?] for layfolk) and some Roman-style lectio divina (I use a recent Augustinian compilation, Tradition Day by Day, patterned somewhat after the Roman office of readings � it has one reading a day, in a mix heavy on the Eastern Fathers!) to the long, long, long prayers given for morning and evening in the standard Orthodox manuals. A priest-monk and good friend explained to me that those are for monastics and taken from the Byzantine version of nocturns. I remarked later to another Orthodox monk that those prayers don�t apply to me and so I don�t usually use them (I sometimes run through three or four of them if the Spirit moves me), and he agreed! They don�t! (This is the same monk I described in my posted rebuttal to Frank Kimball and New Oxford Review.)

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>