The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Wenura Ravindu, Leeno, San Nicolas, Skanderbeg, ClearwaterByz
5,844 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (akemner), 107 guests, and 34 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,166
Posts414,953
Members5,844
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 16 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 15 16
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
As I understand things, the pallium issue is not one of any great concern to the Orthodox, at least those engaged in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Church.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by Pavel Ivanovich
No! He was never a Metroplitan requiring a Pallium.

cool

Thanks, Pavel. That's what I was figuring, based on the previous information, but I wanted to ask rather than assume.

Actually, a better question (although less related to me, personally) would have been: whom did Archbishop Stefan Soroka receive a pallium from (assuming he did receive one I mean)?

Last edited by Peter J; 06/09/12 02:24 PM.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Quote
As I understand things, the pallium issue is not one of any great concern to the Orthodox, at least those engaged in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Church.


Indeed, honorifics are normally not big issues in larger ecumenical dialogue.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Except for the One Big Honorific, which is the source of all disagreement.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.

What? Can you provide a link to this information? And did previous Metropolitans do the same?

No link, but I can confirm it. The Metropolitan stated this at Liturgy this past Sunday which I served with him. Metropolitans Stephen, Thomas, and Judson did. Metropolitan Basil I don't know but I am guessing yes.

I seem to recall that YES our recent metropolitan archbishops received a pallium from Rome... but the manner of reception - again IIRC - has become pro forma and distinctive. That is to say the Metropolitan is not vested with the pallium with Roman rite recipients, but rather presented a pallium in a distinctive and separate ceremony that better reflects an affirmation of communion by both parties.


**IF** my recollection is correct (I beleive Father Louis Rafai is the person with whom I spoke about this over 10 years ago - is he on here?) this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.

For those who are especially concerned about the symbolism and possible meaning, it might be worth looking closer to see what is really so.

Perhaps an interested party on here could contact the Met. Archbishop's office?

Last edited by A Simple Sinner; 06/10/12 10:58 PM.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
This is interesting...

Quote
In origin the pallium and the omophor are the same vestment. The omophor is a wide band of cloth, much larger than the modern pallium, worn by all Eastern Orthodox bishops and Eastern Catholic bishops of the Byzantine Rite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallium

So, if I'm understanding correctly, it seems that Metropolitan William will have both a pallium and an omophor.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
I seem to recall that YES our recent metropolitan archbishops received a pallium from Rome... but the manner of reception - again IIRC - has become pro forma and distinctive. That is to say the Metropolitan is not vested with the pallium with Roman rite recipients, but rather presented a pallium in a distinctive and separate ceremony that better reflects an affirmation of communion by both parties.


**IF** my recollection is correct (I beleive Father Louis Rafai is the person with whom I spoke about this over 10 years ago - is he on here?) this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.

Simple Sinner,

Good to see a post from you, my brother - it's been a long while.

I believe your recollection is correct as regards the presentation being done separately from that in which the Latin metropolitans receive the pallium. I'm not certain how far back that distinction was made - whether it originated with Metropolitan Basil or earlier but, now that you reference it, I remember likewise.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Ok - tracked it down - somewhat. The pallium is ordinarily presented at the Papal Mass on the Feast od Saints Peter & Paul

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Metropolitan Judson received his pallium the day after in private ceremony instead of the Papal Mass because the Ecumenical Patriarch said he would boycott the Mass if a Byzantine metropolitan received the pallium at it.


Actually, as noted in a later post by our beloved friend and brother, Father Serge, of blessed memory, it was actually a public ceremony in the Sisine Chapel, private only in the sense that the majority of those in attendance were those who had traveled from Pittsburgh.

For earlier discussions, dating back to the time of Matropolitan Judson's repose and the naming of Metropolitan Basil, see:

Dates for new Bp/Met

and

Of Omophorions and Palliums

As to whether or not Metropolitan Basil, of blessed memory, also received the pallium separately from the Latin metropolitans, I can't find anything definitive.

Originally Posted by A Simp;e Sinner
**IF** my recollection is correct ... this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.

Unfortunately, I guess that we can revise thinking along those lines. More like - 'this was done out of a sense of understanding that it was not in the best interests of promoting the spirit that incites the meeting of Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch on the Feast of Ss Peter and Paul' - read that as 'best not to upset the honored guest'

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 1
Father Serge also mentioned that while the Pope put the Pallium on the Latin Metropolitans, he merely handed it to Metropolitan Judson.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their

supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also

in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide

better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the

apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over

the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt

institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial

bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical

authority.



Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by A Simp;e Sinner
**IF** my recollection is correct ... this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.

Unfortunately, I guess that we can revise thinking along those lines. More like - 'this was done out of a sense of understanding that it was not in the best interests of promoting the spirit that incites the meeting of Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch on the Feast of Ss Peter and Paul' - read that as 'best not to upset the honored guest'

Many years,

Neil

With all the years that had passed, I completely forgot the detail of the EP being present on the feast of Ss P&P. That jogs the memory!

Originally Posted by StuartK
Father Serge also mentioned that while the Pope put the Pallium on the Latin Metropolitans, he merely handed it to Metropolitan Judson.

Yes, that is how I recall hearing how it went!

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their
supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also
in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide
better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the
apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over
the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt
institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial
bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical
authority.

Perhaps I missed something in reviewing this thread. Can you say more about why you posted this?

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,079
Likes: 11
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their
supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also
in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide
better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the
apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over
the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt
institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial
bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical
authority.

Perhaps I missed something in reviewing this thread. Can you say more about why you posted this?

I suspect that John may have meant to post this to a current thread in Church News titled "Embracing Celibacy follow-up" which was discussing a monastery, but I could be wrong.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 326
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 326
just noticed this on the Archeparchy website @
Archieparchial EVENTS [archeparchy.org] (check back for updates!)

June 29 – Friday
Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul
CHANCERY CLOSED
Archbishop William receives Pallium/Omophor in Rome

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Thanks for that info, Curious Joe. Incidentally, I think this is the first time I've seen it put that way (Pallium/Omophor).

Page 7 of 16 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 15 16

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5