www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Other Sacramental Mysteries Minor Questions That I Cannot Answer

Hello, I've had some minor questions about our religion that no one has been ever to answer for me, at least no one in my family. The first one, why do Eastern Rites do the sign of the cross "up, down, right, left" while the Roman Rites use "up, down, left, right." The Roman Catholic side of my family has asked and we have no real answer. Is there even a real answer?

In that same venue, I learned from a Serbian Orthodox woman that the Orthodox Churches iconostasis is a little different. In Byzantine Catholic Churches, Christ is on the one side of the screen, the Theotokos on the other side, then flanking Christ is the "patron saint-name of the church" icon. Then flanking the Theotokos is Saint Nicholas.

I learned that Orthodox Churches switch the placement of Saint Nicholas and the name-of-parish-icon. Why are these switched? Does it actually have any significance or is it just a method to differentiate "us from them."

I hope all that made sens, if anyone has any insight into why these things are the way they are, I would appreciate the info. Thank you so much for you time, have a blessed day.

Actually, not all Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross right - left. Orientals, like the Syriacs, Malankara, Malabars do it the same as Latins, but not due to Latinization.

Right, though all Eastern Christians use the same formation of fingers (three together for the Trinity and two down for Christ's human and divine natures) in making the sign of the cross. My understanding is that this was once the norm for all Christians, but it was lost in the West.
As for which direction is original, it seems to be quite murky. The theological meanings are different for each, though. Right to left signifies Christ's descent from Heaven to earth, while left to right signifies that Christ has brought us out of death into life.
I've noticed that the placement of icons on the iconostasis varies between the Eastern Orthodox and Greek Catholics, too. I don't know what the history of the arrangement is.

Oh really? I have never encountered any Oriental Catholics or Oriental Orthodox. From what I know, we have none in the Pittsburgh area. I would love to see one of their liturgies. Anyways, do you know why the Byzantine Rites do the sign of the cross different then?

Here's a great site with tons of info on the Byzantine Churches:
http://www.saintelias.com/ca/etiquette/sign.php

The following sign themselves right to left:

Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (all those Churches which serve according to the Constantinoplian or Byzantine Rite, including Old Believers/Ritualists)

Assyrian Church, Ancient Church of the East, and Chladean Catholic Church.

The following sign themselves left to right:

Oriental Catholics and Oriental Orthodox (Armenian Apostolic and Catholic, Coptic Orthodox and Catholic, Eritrean Orthodox. Ethiopian Tewahado Orthodox and Ethiopian Catholic, Syriac Orthodox and Catholic, Syro-Malabarese Catholic, Syro-Malankara Catholic and Orthodox)

Maronite Catholics

Latin Catholics

Many years,

Neil

I think millions of Old Rite Russian Orthodox may want to challenge that ! Two up, three down!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ay.jpg/150px-Spas_vsederzhitel_sinay.jpg

Concerning the order of the saints on the Icononsasis there are many varities. Apart from the Theotokos to the left and Christ on the right (while facing) the royal doors, the rest depends somewhat on how large the church is, and who's paying for the iconostasis.

Some churches have icons of St. Stephen and St. Lawrence on the Deacons' doors, other churches may have archangels. Here at my parish we have St. Volodymyr and St. Constantine on the south door and St. Helen and St. Olga on the north door.

Another example, here in Grand Rapids, we have an icon of St. Michael, the church's patron on the iconostasis. At my original parish in Indiana, also dedicated to St. Michael, there was in icon of St. John the Baptist.

One problem in insisting on "always" having the patron saint depected on a main panel of the Iconostasis is what if the patrons of the church are a collective group such as "Three Holy Hierarchs", or "All Saints of North America".

When talking about Icons, I try to avoid "always and never" terms because there are always exceptions.

Those were great questions! Keep on askin' and God bless you!
Stefan-Ivan

Yes, I know the significance of many of the Saints depicted on the iconostasis. At my church, Church of the Resurrection, we have Archangel Raphael on one of the Deacon doors, and Archangel Michael on the other. Raphael carries the "IC" in Christ's icons, and Michael carries the "XC."

I was just curious why the differences have appeared when they seem to be just developed tradition and not dogma. How did the Church perform the sign of the cross before the Great Schism? Did the "left to right-right to left" occur after the Great Schism? My dad, who is Roman Catholic just theorizes it was done to distance the two feuding halves of the Church. My mom, who is Byzantine like myself has a similar theory with why the Orthodox iconostasis are a bit different, just to differentiate between the "true" Orthodox and the "uniate" Orthodox.

Are there any more minor differences between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox other than those? Nothing from a dogmatic point of view, just the little traditions. With that said, I'm sure the Orthodox ethnic groups have their own specific methods. I did my Art History final on the difference of Greek Orthodox architecture and Russian Orthodox architecture. Shame I wasn't allowed to incorporate any others, teacher said the paper would have been too long.

One theory that I have heard regarding the difference in making the sign of the cross is that it was a "mistake" that arose with the spread of missionary priests. When a few converts join an existing church, they copy what everyone is doing; when a mission starts and there is no established community, all the converts copy the priest -- and they copied what they saw him doing without taking into account the mirror effect.

I don't know if that's true, but it makes as much sense as anything else, especially in a time when most people were illiterate and liturgical instruction would have been visual and experiential, not structured with books of theology and rubrics to adhere to.

Yes. I was told exactly the same thing about mirroring the priest.

Lately I find myself making the sign of the Cross the Eastern way more often than not and that includes when I'm at Mass. It's becoming habitual to the point where I notice that I've even become careless about it.

At a Russian Orthodox liturgy I observed some time ago, I noticed that one of the priests, whenever everyone else would make the sign of the Cross, would drop his fingers from his forehead to his abdomen and then make a quick clockwise circle...and I thought to myself, "what on earth is he doing; what is that meant symbolize?" Then I caught myself doing it one day and realized it was just a sloppy sign of the Cross.

Contrasting that Russian Orthodox's priest's circular sign of the Cross, I was at an Antiochian Orthodox church at which one of the priests blessed himself with very precise signs of the Cross...but without ever touching himself while doing it. Although he pointed his fingers at himself, he would make the Cross in the air, in front of himself, rather than on himself.

The most interesting sign of the Cross I have seen is an Orthodox bishop's blessing, whereby he blesses with both hands, simultaneously. I would suppose Byzantine Rite Catholic bishops do the same.

Yes, I've been at a few liturgies where then Bishop William, now Metropolitan William celebrated and he performed the sign of the cross with both hands at the same time. At his enthronement he even did them with the Pascha style Trinity candles in each hand. That's pretty impressive.

Is there some variation of practice here? We have a Chaldean woman in our parish and she and her sister cross left to right. I've also visited the Chaldean church with them, and I seemed to recall that they crossed left to right as well.

The Chaldean Catholics tend to follow the Syriac/Latin/Copt practice.