The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
CelestineV, arekeon27, Wenura Ravindu, Leeno, San Nicolas
5,846 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 84 guests, and 33 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,168
Posts414,969
Members5,846
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#383360 07/25/12 07:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 157
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 157
Hi. I am not trying to cause flame wars, but I was wondering why there are Roman Catholics in Ukraine? I actually know why, but I thought all the people there were eastern Christian...

It is odd that there is a separate hierarchy in Ukraine for the RCs, but in the US in the last century the eastern Christians were under RC bishops.

John

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Someone will be along with better info, but it looks like the Archdiocese of Lviv [catholic-hierarchy.org] was erected (1412) before the Union of Brest (1595).

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Quote
Hi. I am not trying to cause flame wars, but I was wondering why there are Roman Catholics in Ukraine? I actually know why, but I thought all the people there were eastern Christian...

It is odd that there is a separate hierarchy in Ukraine for the RCs, but in the US in the last century the eastern Christians were under RC bishops.

John


Sbdn John:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I'm sure the reason has to do with the historic border and government shifts in that region, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

The short answer about the hierarchy IMHO--it's the colonial attitude/mentality: the superiority of the Western/Latin mentality, ritual, spirituality, etc. Can you imagine what the Latins in Ukraine would be doing if they were placed under the UGCC? You'd be able to hear the screaming in outer space. After all, isn't the Latin experience and expression of the Faith handed to us through the ages superior to all other expressions and experiences?

I am Latin. I love and respect the Eastern Churches. I am ashamed, frustrated, angered--the whole spectrum of negative emotions--when I sit and think about these injustices. And this mindset--it's alive and well everywhere I turn.

Bob

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 335
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 335
There have been Poles, Lithuanians and Germans in Ukraine for quite some time. They deserve, I think, to worship within their own tradition just as we do. There is an RC heirarchy in Russia for the same reason.

Rybak #383371 07/25/12 11:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,882
Likes: 25
Rybak:

Christ is in our midst!!

I think you miss Sbdn John's point. Why, if Eastern Catholics must be under a Latin bishop in the United States thought they can worship in theri own tradition, are not Latin Catholics under an Eastern bishop within the canonical territory of an Eastern Catholic Church? No one is suggesting that the Latins in Ukraine should be forced into the Byzantine praxis of the area. Rybak is comparing the relative treatment of Catholics in similar situations.

Bob

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
This is an issue that bothers me as well. Not just about Ukraine but about canonical territory in general: it should be symmetric.

Rybak #383378 07/26/12 02:43 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
There is at least one Lithuanian on this forum with Bielorussian and/or Ukrainian ancestors in his woodpile (to say nothing of his Litvak ancestors) who's a Greek Catholic. Gosh, who could THAT be?

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 324
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 324
Originally Posted by theophan
Rybak:

Christ is in our midst!!

I think you miss Sbdn John's point. Why, if Eastern Catholics must be under a Latin bishop in the United States thought they can worship in theri own tradition, are not Latin Catholics under an Eastern bishop within the canonical territory of an Eastern Catholic Church?

Pardon my bewilderment at this concern. Are Eastern Catholics in the United States subject to Latin Church bishops? The Ukrainian Catholics in this country, I know, have their own hierarchy. Ukrainian Catholics where I live aren't subject to the Roman Catholic bishop of my diocese in Upstate New York, but rather fall under the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Eparchy of Stamford, CT. Am I misunderstanding something?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760

I, like Roman Interloper, don't understand, either. Do you consider it an injustice that ethnic, and always Western since conversion to Christianity, RC's SHOULDN"T have their own Bishops?

Their dioceses have existed since before the Union. Some may have at one time been Eastern, but I believe this is not nearly the norm. Without doing any research, as I recall, the Polish and Lithuanian kingdoms were powerful during the late Middle Ages.

Surely, vindictiveness isn't in order here.

More info, please.


S'nami Boh!

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
There are some Eastern Catholics, e.g. Russians, Italo-Albanians, who are without a hierarchy in the U.S. and are therefore subject to the local Latin Bishop.

This doesn't happen with Latins in Ukraine, because, as I pointed out above, the Latin hierarchy in Ukraine was founded at a time before the Union of Brest and the Eastern Christians there were not at the time in Communion with the Holy See. The delicacy of the religious-political situation over the intervening centuries has probably made wholesale reordering of the situation (e.g. making the Latin dioceses personal) unfeasible/undesirable.

It doesn't happen with Latins in Russia for, among other reasons, the Russian Catholic Hierarchy is vacant.

According to Wikipedia at least, it does happen in Italy, where there are some Latin parishes within the territory of the Italo-Albanian dioceses that are governed by them.

Last edited by JBenedict; 07/26/12 06:51 PM. Reason: punctuation
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,405
It is not odd that there is a separate hierarchy for Latins in Ukraine, because there are maybe 800,000 Latin Catholics in Ukraine. They are mostly of Polish origin, but also some Hungarians in Transcarpathia.

It is also a fact that most of the current Eastern Catholic eparchies in the United States were established during the last century, i.e. the 20th century, so that Eastern Catholics were in fact no longer under Latin bishops.

The Latin archdiocese of Lviv dates back to the 15th century and in fact Lviv (Lwów in Polish) had a Polish-majority population until the Second World War, when Poles were ethnically cleansed by Stalin (see Antony Beevor, The Second World War[/i], p. 711 [amazon.co.uk]). I might add that there was also an Armenian Catholic archeparchy of Lviv from the 17th century until the Second World War, now sadly defunct.

The Latin hierarchy in Ukraine has a long history and serves the needs of the local Latin Catholics, many of Polish origin. Before anyone questions this presence, they should consider the fact that the Polish Pope Bl. John Paul II established several Eastern Catholic eparchies in historically Latin Catholic countries.

Also, it is not logical to claim that Eastern Catholics in the United States should have their own bishops if one thinks that Latin Catholics in Ukraine shouldn't have the same rights.

In the Catholic Church today, regardless of the sins of the past, everyone is entitled to pastoral care according to his own liturgical tradition, whether Latin or Eastern, including priests or bishops of his own Church [i]sui iuris. And that is, I believe, as it should be.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,655
Likes: 3
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,655
Likes: 3
Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
The situation in Italy is unusual, as the 3 Byzantine juristictions actually have land border with their Latin neighbouring diocese. If you leave the Monastery at Grottaferrata for example you cross over from the Exarchate into the Diocese of Frascati. Mass celebrated within the tiny Exarchate is done commemorating the Exarch who is the Abbot of the monastery and Byzantine Div. Liturgy celebrated away from the monastery in the the local area say, commemorates the Bshop of Frascati whose diocese they are in at the time.

cool

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 2
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 2
so, are these Latin bishops in the Ukraine appointed by the Ukranian hierarchy, or from Italy?


hawk

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
I suspect the the Conference of Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine advise the Holy see just as Latin bishops do everywhere if there is a vacancy. Each diocese must maintain a short list of possible maybes, just in case the See is vacant, that has to be regularly updated.

cool

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5