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I think the whole point is that he doesn't have a spiritual father yet and he's seeking one, so who are you suggesting give him the blessing ahead of time to seek one?

It seems like the problem with getting a blessing from one's Roman Catholic priest in this situation is that they're probably not used to giving blessings for things (as in 'permissions')in the way Eastern spiritual fathers are. And many of them may not know enough about the Orthodox to be able to say one way or the other. They're also usually swamped with work, and if it were me it would just feel pretty akward to call up a priest I've only met a couple of times and ask him permission to see an Orthodox priest. I can only imagine his response would be "huh?"

I'll remember that, for next time. For the time being, I just got a response from him; and, he has accepted my request . If you're ever in the area, give me a holler! I'd love to meet other fora folk.

And, I agree, Father Frank is great. He's a treasure trove of language data, since I'm a language junkie.

I see, there is just not that kind of relationship in the Roman rite.

And when Stuart and the other guy says that asking a blessing is scrupulosity, do they believe that about the Orthodox and their spiritual ways?

Also, even the saints believed themselves to have fallen into Prelest.

"Spiritual deception is the state of all men without exception." St Ignatius

"Even a pious person is not immune to spiritual sickness." St Seraphim

So, what do you do when your spiritual father is either a jerk or a charlatan or both? This has become a persistent problem in Russia since the fall of communism, and many Russian hierarchs have spoken about the manner in which some spiritual fathers have abused their authority and trust.

In any case, regarding the matter at hand, as there is a normative rule within the Catholic Church, one need not ask permission, or a blessing, to follow the rule. One asks a blessing to do that which is extraordinary or not covered by normative rules. The Pope having said it is permissible to pray with and engage the Orthodox in dialogue, no further permission is required. To ask whether it is or not--repeatedly--smacks of someone looking for someone to talk him out of something he wants to do. I'm not going to do that.

Since it is happening in Russia it is happening everywhere? Bad logic. I think we call it a Texas Sharpshooter.

As for the second part of your statement. Thank you for explaining the "normative rule," I would have never understood it in that regard without your input. As for his motivation, I would not know that, as mine was a side question.

There have been examples here as well. Particularly among communities full of zealous converts.

The fact that it isn't common in the Roman Rite (or the Latin Church generally) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the Roman Rite.

I think we can all agree, at least, that Catholics don't need further permission to pray with or dialogue with Orthodox.

I will let God judge my spiritual health. In any case, Stuart and "that guy" (I would never refer to a forum brother or sister that way, and it is the first time I have ever seen it on this forum) never said that asking a blessing was scrupulosity. What is a scrupulosity is feeling that one has to ask a blessing (permission, I guess) for an activity that has been already blessed by the highest authorities in the church. I hope you have the understanding to perceive the difference. We may have disagreements, but you will never be, for me, "that guy".

Your brother in Christ,

Utroque

If you want to get nasty about it, I just couldn't remember the pseudonym that you hide behind. And Stuart was the one that brought up the term, you just jumped in.

Stuart further explained the "normative rule." My offense was brought about simply because my question, asked from an orthodox perspective, was answered or dismissed with such a term.

I guess such a question in the East & West section is miss-categorized. I simply did not understand. Orthodoxy does not work that way, at least it is not meant to work that way.

Lets not turn this into an emotional argument. That is where differences will never come to light.

I was not being nasty, I was just politely trying to clarify what I thought was a misunderstanding on your part, and I made a plea for civility. I do not hide behind any pseudonyms. It is my understanding that we are free to remain anonymous on this forum, as well as free to "jump in" to support a poster.

Utroque and chadrook,

I would just see this as the typical "escalation" phenomenon. At one point we've got



then it moves up to



etc. (Of course, by saying that there's escalation going on, I'm in danger of being a high-horse know-it-all. Hopefully I'm not, but it's hard to be sure of oneself. )

So, Chadrook, you're going out of town for the weekend. Do you ask your priest or spiritual father for a blessing to attend liturgy in another parish? Or do you just do it, assuming that the "normative rule" for Orthodoxy is an Orthodox in good standing can receive the Mysteries in any canonical Orthodox Church? We're not monastics. We don't have to ask a blessing for every last thing, because we are granted free will and the gift of the Holy Sprit to lead us into all truth. Obedience is a means to an end, not an end in itself--which is why there is no Nuremberg defense in Christianity.

Of course I ask for a blessing. And for many reasons. But not because I am in a cult or because of some blind devotion. I don't even get magick out of it.

I think that we are crossing wires here because the act of attending liturgy in another parish is not an issue. But receiving the mysteries in another parish is, as would spiritual advice.
I think Father Alexey said it best:
Many converts never progress beyond this initial requirement to obey the principles of an Orthodox way of life; some actually spend their lives struggling against it altogether. But those to whom it is granted to go deeper, to go beyond the baby milk of spiritual life, there awaits the experience of the strong wine of Orthodox obedience. It is the purpose of this short essay to examine this kind of obedience—obedience to a spiritual Father—in the life of an Orthodox Christian layman.

But we come from different traditions and even understandings. I come from the tradition of the "crazy schismatics," so lovingly termed from the "canonical," Orthodox. But not that long ago when I was in ROCOR, and at that time termed "crazy schismatic,"
I remember priest turning away people from the chalice. The priest would even talk to each other about such visits and things.

Utroque, forgive me if I offend you. I have always had a knee jerk reaction since the days of the Synod list to people with pseudonyms for names. Before union with Moscow, we had several priest for and/or against directing the discussion behind such names.

I think you're right. See my earlier comment: