www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Question about Vespers/Matins during weekdays

Does, what is often called, ordinary or daily Vespers (or Matins) depend heavily on the Octoechos and not the Menaion? Every site I've looked at almost entirely focuses on the Octoechos, which has left me wondering whether the Menaion is relevant (I assume it is).

Sunday and festal Vespers (or Matins), I'm good with. I also can just go to church for that and not have to worry about it.

Say, I'm doing a reader's service of Vespers or Matins on a weekday and the feast day is a saint with "a simple service." I would obviously have to use the Octoechos to fill in some material, but the order would be the daily order of the service and not the festal, correct?

If this is correct, what is distinguishing matter? A saint whose feast is ranked as a great doxology or Polyeleos follow the order of "Sunday and festal" Vespers or Matins, and those who are ranked lower, do not? (We're assuming the feast isn't landing on a Sunday).

Thanks!

Yes, below a polyeleos-rank saint, we use the "daily order" for Vespers and Matins, which draw equally on the Octoechos and Menaion. Unfortunately, few people have a full menaion at home!

The Slav tradition makes use of common hymns for various classes of saints; this is called the "common menaion". Hymns from the common menaion for Vespers can be found in the Metropolitan Cantor Institute's Daily Vespers book, along with the hymns in the eight tones.

MCI Daily Vespers book [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]
A similar book is in preparation for Daily Matins.

In Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. Another list member wrote me asking for help learning how to set up the daily services; please write me at Plainchanter@gmail.com if you want to take part in that conversation.

P.P.S. For a polyeleos-or-above saint, we use the festal orders for Vespers and Matins.

The Menaion is rarely ommitted, but as you say the Octoechos takes precedence for lower-ranked feasts. For a simple feast on a weekday, you use the "General Menaion" for the three stikhera of the saint based on class of saint (martyr, hierarch, apostle, prophet, etc.). In the case of a double commemoration (two saints), you take three stikhera for the first saint and three for the second (and thus none from the Octoechos). The stikhera for Six-stikhera, doxology, polyeleos and vigil rank feasts are all taken from the Menaion.

The Aposticha stikhera get a bit more complicated, with the Menaion only used for polyeleos rank and higher, although the doxasticon is used from the Menaion when available. Matins uses the "daily" form for everything beneath Doxology rank. While the Doxology rank doesn't have a polyeleos, velichannya or a particular Gospel, the Great Doxology is sung with four stikhera at the Praises and thus the festal order is followed.

A decent on-line guide for Slavic usage is available at http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/order_divine_services_fecula.htm#_Toc1457132

Thanks to you both!

I was relatively certain I had a correct hunch. I have access to both a (virtually) complete Octoechos and Menaion, so my main concern was making sure I'm putting everything together correctly, or as close as possible.

I'm pretty good with Vespers, which I pray more or less frequently. Non-Sunday and non-festal Matins just confuses me still. Sunday is straight from the Octoechos, with additions from the Menaion, unless a feast of the Lord entirely suppresses it; and major feasts pretty much come entirely from the Menaion.

It's those lesser feasts that confuse me. So I rarely say it for that and other obvious reasons.

Thanks again!