The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Galumph, Leon_C, Rocco, Hvizsgyak, P.W.
5,984 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 238 guests, and 46 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,389
Posts416,722
Members5,984
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 2
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Likes: 2
Quote
The cherubim are not going to roll out a red carpet in the Kingdom at our arrival because we ensured women stayed off the altar. What a severe waste of energy, truly.

So you may think, but by their fruits shall ye know them, and the fruits of women's ordination have been bitter, indeed.

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 4
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by BenjaminRH
This is one of those matters where you will not be greeted in Heaven joyously, or rejected outright. IN the issues facing the Sons and daughters of God, this is one of those astounding non-issues, the "leavened vs. unleavened bread" debate of the 21st century.

The cherubim are not going to roll out a red carpet in the Kingdom at our arrival because we ensured women stayed off the altar. What a severe waste of energy, truly.

God bless.


... Our distresses are notorious, even though we leave them untold, for now their sound has gone out into all the world. The doctrines of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the devices of innovators are in vogue in the Churches; now men are rather contrivers of cunning systems than theologians; the wisdom of this world wins the highest prizes and has rejected the glory of the cross. Shepherds are banished, and in their places are introduced grievous wolves hurrying the flock of Christ. Houses of prayer have none to assemble in them; desert places are full of lamenting crowds. The elders lament when they compare the present with the past. The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived. All this is enough to stir the pity of men who have learnt the love of Christ; but, compared with the actual state of things, words fall very far short...

Saint Basil the Great


Alexandr

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
I belong to Mary Immaculate of Lourdes in Newton, Ma. We do not have female altar servers. I can see that there is a stronger sense of community between the servers, especially the Latin Mass community.

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Yeah, some RC parishes can be pretty liberal about this idea... At least in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox traditions, we keep to tradition. I don't think we'd be changing this any time soon.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,150
Likes: 65
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,150
Likes: 65
Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I re-read this thread since it has recently been resurrected and wondered if the difference in how Orders is viewed has something to do with the differences in theology and practice between East and West. There is certainly a big difference between the Augustinian and Cyrillian view of Orders, as we saw in the discussion of the reception by the Chaldean Catholic Church of a defrocked bishop of the Church of the East. Augustine saw Orders as something that has a permanent, personal character that stayed with an individual, while Cyril held that Orders were a function of the Church and the Church could remove one back to the lay state and no trace of clerical functions could remain. We see that in the fact that a laicized priest of the Catholic Church can still perform certain functions in an extreme emergency but a similarly laicized Orthodox priest cannot.

And does this carry over into the thinking and practice of the diaconate? The West sees the diaconate as being Major Orders akin to the priesthood and episcopate: having a permanent character that women cannot have. Is this maybe the reason that there does not seem to be as big a problem with female deaconesses in the limited cases mentioned above? And somewhere on this board it was once mentioned that the Coptic Orthodox Church might have been restoring this order. Fr. Kyrillos?

Bob

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 57
Why is it when feminists rage they almost always want people to use the feminine term. So I say we should call them what they are priestesses NOT priests. There is no such beast in the English language as female priest, it is priestess. Abuse of language it an abuse of power as Joseph Pieper stated.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,150
Likes: 65
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,150
Likes: 65
8IronBob:

Okay, you have a video of a sacrilege. If you check the Internet, there are plenty of them. My sister-in-law, a Catholic nun, sent me a clip of one of her former students who is now an "Eastern bishop" in some sect. Her "ordination" was really a blend of rituals, but apparently they couldn't afford the full set of episcopal vestments and she was vested in a worn, blue epitralhilion, together with a klobuk. Gave me chills. Her "DL" was a mix of East and Weest--I thought it might be because she'd probably never seen a DL.

But what do you think the Good Lord will say when they arrive in front of Him?

That's the question we all have to ask ourselves when we think we can do it better than those to whom He has passed authority through his Apostles and their successors.

Bob

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
I can tell you one thing, my virus checker does not like women priests. I tried to watch the video listed here and before that lady made it to the stop step I got a message that a malicious URL was detected and closed. so much for womyn priestesses.

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Offline
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Ordination to the Diaconate has this part:

Quote
Divine grace, which always heals what is infirm and completes what is lacking, ordains N., the most devout Subdeacon, as Deacon. Let us therefore pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.

The Rite for the Deaconess, omits this part.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1
R
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1
[quote=8IronBob]Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:
http://youtu.be/0mt_TyP4Hw4 [/quote]

That is one of the most horrible things to watch. One or two seconds of that and it was enough.

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 22
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Ordination to the Diaconate has this part:

Quote
Divine grace, which always heals what is infirm and completes what is lacking, ordains N., the most devout Subdeacon, as Deacon. Let us therefore pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.

The Rite for the Deaconess, omits this part.

No it doesn't.

"ORDER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A WOMAN DEACON

After the completion of the holy Anaphora and the opening of the doors, before the Deacon says, Having commemorated all the Saints,the one to be ordained is brought before the Bishop. As he declaims the invocation, Divine grace, etc., she bows her head, on which he lays his hand."


http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Originally Posted by RuthC
Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:

That is one of the most horrible things to watch. One or two seconds of that and it was enough.

Totally agreed... I only looked as that as an ugly example, and thought about reporting the guy that uploaded that to Youtube. But I thought, well, maybe this would serve as an example of what would be wrong with how today's society wants to think of so called "equal rights to clergy" if you will.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
I was reflecting during my recent marriage on this topic. In the Byzantine rite of Crowning, the hymns sung during the three circuits around the "altar" in the centre of the church mirror those sung during the three circuits around the altar during ordinations. My hypothesis is that the table in the church at the wedding service replaced the altar proper, and that originally the coupled circled the altar itself as a kind of "ordination". Given that, as well as extant services for the ordination of deaconesses at the altar with the same rubrics, I think that we can assume that women did go to the altar in the east at least some of time.

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Well, I remember sharing those videos from the UGCC visit to Hong Kong a while back in the thread "Weird Iconostases" I think, and there they had altar girls serving, even though it was an RC Church, they were serving in the Eastern Tradition. So I'm not sure what to say about that one.

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5