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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: Sep 2006
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At some point, it'd be nice if we could agree to talk to each other, rather than past each other. Essential for dialogue. Many of us do try to do just that. Papa Franceso is leading the way and setting a good example for us all. Apparently the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox representatives who've attended the Installation have been staying at the same residence as the pope, and he is having breakfast and dining with them daily. Did we ever think we'd see the day? Table Talk [ catholicnews.com]
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I think the real reason for the tone of Met. Hilarion's remarks is that he is perceived by some Orthodox as being sympathetic to Greek Catholics; thus he goes in harder on them in public statements to prop up his internal reputation. Interesting point, Otsheylnik. There are often multiple audiences behind what we say.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Anything in particular I should be sifting for? The answer to your question. I don't have any questions, as Met. Hilarion left none. Anything in particular I should be sifting for? Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident?? Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church. So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave? Why would they need to if they were part of the newly unified church? Why are they there now, outside of the UGCC in their present unified communion with the "supreme authority of the church" they recognize in Pastor Aeternus? You didn't answer my question. It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441. You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period. The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it? You didn't answer my question. On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly. What local spat would that be? The one we're talking about, Ukraine. No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow. You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place. We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Then why the worry about canonical territories? The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers. Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion. That alone is no excuse here. Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.
Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler. I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios. That isn't what I suggested asking him.
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Again, not necessarily picking bones with the Orthodox.
Let the Catholics give in to all arguments of "territory" and unite so that they made fade into one anyways.
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Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident?? I don't know: did you open your rabbit hole under Met. Gennadios' name on purpose? You didn't answer my question. There is no answer to your question: within Orthodoxy all the bishops of Ukraine are under the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine, because they are in communion with him and the rest of Orthodoxy. Under the Vatican, the Major Archbishop (who claims he is a patriarch, despite what his supreme pontiff says) has his bishops in Ukraine and elsewhere outside of Urkaine, there's a separate bishop in Zakarpatia directly under the Vatican, alongside a host of Latin bishops-including one for Kiev, and for good measure an Armenian bishop in L'viv under a catholicos in Lebanon, although they are all in communion with each other. If you want a justification/excuse for why that is (dis)organized, you will have to ask their "font of unity" for it. You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period. The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it? You didn't answer my question. Yes, I did. You just didn't like the answer. No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow. You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place. Oh? What particular comments would seem "awkwardly out of place", as His Eminence points to expansion-or even the existence-of the UGCC as being "awkardly out of place." Then why the worry about canonical territories? The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers. Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion. So did the Apostles and Fathers. That alone is no excuse here. I gave you the reason. You will have to ask someone else for excuses. Do be specific as to what you want excused. Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.
Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler. I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios. That isn't what I suggested asking him. I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?
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I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk?
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I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk? Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion?
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I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk? Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion? Come on all, it's Lent for all of us at least until tomorrow.  Play nice.
Last edited by DMD; 03/22/13 09:20 AM.
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Za myr z'wysot ... Member
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Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly. What local spat would that be? The same one as between the MP and the UOC-KP/UAOC. We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. True, the Church is one. This only means that these man-made divisions must cease.
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I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?
Because it makes no sense to complain about Catholic impinging on Orthodox canonical territory while establishing churches in Rome, in London, etc.
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I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?
Because it makes no sense to complain about Catholic impinging on Orthodox canonical territory while establishing churches in Rome, in London, etc. I'll hold off replying until jjp (the OP) answers. But in the meantime, on London: you have heard of the Act of Supremacy, no?
Last edited by IAlmisry; 03/22/13 11:40 AM.
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Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly. What local spat would that be? The same one as between the MP and the UOC-KP/UAOC. You mean UOC-MP and the rest of Orthodoxy. Exactly (don't forget the Pidhirtsi Fathers and their "Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" and the "Priestly Society of St. Josaphat" as well). We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. True, the Church is one. This only means that these man-made divisions must cease. Exactly.
Last edited by IAlmisry; 03/22/13 11:47 AM.
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It might be me, but it sounds like several people are calling for Syncretism.
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Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion? No, that would be you, Isa. You not only deliberately go out of your way to annoy the Catholics, you also annoy your Orthodox brethren. As for Metropolitan Hilarion, he has a job to do as foreign secretary of the Patriarch Synod of Moscow, so I would expect him to do no more or less than express the official position of the Church of Moscow. You, however, consistently demonstrate a cavalier disregard for both truth and charity.
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Is this ex cathedra? Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion? No, that would be you, Isa. You not only deliberately go out of your way to annoy the Catholics, you also annoy your Orthodox brethren. As for Metropolitan Hilarion, he has a job to do as foreign secretary of the Patriarch Synod of Moscow, so I would expect him to do no more or less than express the official position of the Church of Moscow. You, however, consistently demonstrate a cavalier disregard for both truth and charity. Like this? That Russian bishop is insane if he actually believes that the Pope will abandon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
What craziness! And he calls himself a Christian?
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