www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall RC Liturgical Movement and Liturgical "Reform"

The Dialogue Mass still creates confusion, especially when laity from different countries (English-speaking vs mainland Europe) attend:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2012/10/dialogue-mass.html

An unfortunate comment. If Roman Catholic parishes offered less "uninformed tripe" in place of their Church's official and beautiful Liturgy, then you might have a point about Orthodox criticisms. Since "tripe" is the norm rather than the exception in large swaths of the Latin Church, the Orthodox critique is largely vindicated, even if not always expressed precisely: you don't need a STL in liturgical theology to drive over to St Anyone of Anywhere and figure out within five minutes that something stinks.

True! When I accepted my director of music/organist job in 2001, the pastor and I decided we didn't want to be like everyone else. We have a congregation with many older folks, and people who were looking for some place to get away from bad music and liturgy. In fairness, we are not the only parish in town that tries to be a bit better.

Unfortunately, the Orthodox world is not always pristine. Some congregations can go off-track, too. Overall, their track record is better at preserving tradition, but you can find the occasional exception.

Some day, I'll take a road trip and document just how common the exceptions really are.

Meanwhile, I challenge anyone on this forum to find an honest-to-goodness clown or puppet Mass in their own vicinity. Evidence would have to be in the form of a date and time-stamped video and a notarized affidavit indicating the church at which this occurred.

Gee, wasn't it St. Augustine himself who said, "qui cantat bis orat?"

Still, there is a place for silent meditation, as witnessed by the resurgence of Eucharistic Adoration in the RCC. And while the latter may still be problematic from our perspective (another discussion!), it is still a more appropriate place for total silence than during the Liturgy (although the the idea that there should *never* be any periods of total silence, popular among many RC liturgists--and some of ours as well--doesn't seem right, either).

Believe it or not, I attended Mass at the cathedral in Orlando a couple of times recently, and was really impressed by their selection of hymns. All of them were new to me, but they all used dignified language, good music and sound theology. (I actually suspect that they were of Anglican origin, but why should that matter?)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Anglicans have generally excelled at hymn writing. I use their hymns. With the Anglican Ordinariate using it, I have heard that The Hymnal, 1940 is now approved as a Catholic hymnal.

The organist at the Basilica Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is mighty fond of Marty Luther and Johnny Wesley. I just love when he starts belting out Nun Danket Alle Gott as the recessional hymn for the noon Mass, and I just want to sing along.

Definitely. Sometimes I've found them against my will.

I was baptised and raised within the modern/mainstream Roman Catholic Rite since infancy; I grew up in a New England city mostly populated by Irish and Italians. Unlike most folks, I have a pleasant mixture of Catholic and Orthodox family, so I was exposed to ancient worship early in my childhood. I also happened upon the traditional Latin worship as well, and on occasion I attend this pristine form of liturgy. I spent several years of spiritual wandering, primarily in the Episcopal Church, but I returned to the "safe harbor" and now worship in a Byzantine Catholic parish.

In my humble opinion, the problem with modern Western liturgy is that it is too focused on individual tastes and spur of the moment culture. The West, Orthodox allege, changed the simple manner in which we cross/bless ourselves, From right to left to left from right. A minute change you say, but perhaps an indication of innovative tendancies. If you attend five typical Roman Catholic parishes within your city, you likely will experience five to ten different styles of worship. ANd even at the same Mass time the following week, it may drastically vary even then.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I have walked out of Mass before due to my perception of horrid music. God have mercy on me a sinner.

I believe what matters at the end of the day is where the heart of a parish resides. Yes, a liturgy may have guitars and swaying swishy music, but they also likely have a terrific outreach program to souls in need. No doubt they have an active Knights of Columbus who hold the Tootsie Roll drives that benefit the needy, and so forth. That is what counts. I know that we all know that profound quote about preaching the Gospel" by St Francis.

I believe that modern "Latin" Catholic parishes can learn from Eastern Catholic liturgical patrimony. We don't have severe debates over taste in music or felt banners or other "cultural" issues plaguing modern Roman Catholicism.* Perhaps Western Catholic parishes can forgo their bitter liturgical conundrums and simply return to a patrimony of plainchant, evensong, and polyphony. Albeit in the vernacular of course. English can be quite a beautiful tongue when utilized properly!

*Yes, I am aware of the matter of "De-Latinization," and that is an appropriate matter of discussion. Thank you Vatican II for your respect :-)

As a Byzantine working in traditional Latin Church music, I see that difference mentioned above. In the Byzantine liturgy, I accept that it isn't all about me. Too many Latins think the opposite.