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Originally Posted by The young fogey
The man's a born Orthodox of 60 from a priestly family so he knows his church's politics, so he knows what he's talking about.

Respect.

And I am a convert (not fanatical or crazy) from Eastern Catholicism.

Respect.

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For example, the ROCOR jumped in with glee in the 1970's when SS. Peter and Paul OCA Church in Endicott, NY adopted the new calendar and a group of the 'losing' voters petitioned to them for a new parish - St. Nicholas ROCOR in Endicott, NY. Over the years, in spite of outreach by the Orthodox Clergy association of Broome County to include their pastors in their activities (recognizing that joint worship was not then possible) the priest reacted by criticizing the others from the pulpit. When the other OCA parish switched by OCA mandate in 1983, further splits took place. Lots of disparaging stuff went on - always in one direction I have to add and yes - I am making a judgment. But as the composition of the parish changed with converts etc, it became more and more isolationist with their priest. When the ROCOR rejoined the MP, the parish split in a vitriolic explosion - the pastor publically rebuked the merger, joined the so-called True Orthodox and with the assistance of a wealthy benefactor started a new parish in rural Owego, NY.

The so called True Orthodox had some sort of convocation there a few years ago, the local papers covered it and the quotes about the canonical Church given by many there were simply disgusting.

Likewise in Clymer, PA when the parish was under interdict from Metropolitan Nicholas due to wilful disobeience and mistreatment of their duly appointed pastor and a large number of the parishioners were specifically under an excommunication (in Orthodox terms imposed by their lawful Bishop for disobedience) the ROCOR had no issue with providing them with a priest, supporting the construction of yet another parish and allowing them into communion - all this while the merger talks with Moscow were progressing. This is real stuff folks and that is why not all share warm, fuzzy feelings when it comes to the ROCOR and other groups which in conscience chose their own path.

I'm glad you have had a good experience with ROCOR, may it continue. I know a number of great people within, including priests. One of the most impressive, humble, humorous and kindly preachers I have heard was the former ROCOR priest with the weeping icon from Philadelphia who has since retired to St. Tikhon's. He brought the icon to Camp Nazareth at Metropolitan Nicholas' invitation for a youth retreat in 2007, to the local UOCUSA parish twice for veneration. But the scars remaining from the less charitable are difficult to erase and to not critique the latest tome from the ROCOR Synod with the benefit of my own experiences would be disengenuous.

As I said, I have tried to qualify my comments with 'many' or 'some' and give positive examples, but truth can not be varnished nor is it 'uncharitable'. Observations can, however, be subjective and to that charge, I admit the same.


Last edited by DMD; 01/17/14 01:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by DMD
I'm glad you have had a good experience with ROCOR, may it continue. I know a number of great people within, including priests. One of the most impressive, humble, humorous and kindly preachers I have heard was the former ROCOR priest with the weeping icon from Philadelphia who has since retired to St. Tikhon's. He brought the icon to Camp Nazareth at Metropolitan Nicholas' invitation for a youth retreat in 2007, to the local UOCUSA parish twice for veneration. But the scars remaining from the less charitable are difficult to erase and to not critique the latest tome from the ROCOR Synod with the benefit of my own experiences would be disengenuous.

As I said, I have tried to qualify my comments with 'many' or 'some' and give positive examples, but truth can not be varnished nor is it 'uncharitable'. Observations can, however, be subjective and to that charge, I admit the same.

Yes. My experience with ROCOR has been blessed and I have met only gentle and humble clergy. In fact, it was an Eastern Catholic clergy who introduced me to the ROCOR and encouraged my journey. If you, or others have scars, I am sorry.

We have been discussing Partiarch Kirill’s letter about the Chambesy process. Some of us agree with his remarks...and some of us do not.

But I don't think there is a need for remarks about the "smugness" of the ROCOR and Her bishops, clergy, and faithful. And there is no reason to start giving personal opinions using remarks such as “fanatics” or “crazy converts.”

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by DMD
I'm glad you have had a good experience with ROCOR, may it continue. I know a number of great people within, including priests. One of the most impressive, humble, humorous and kindly preachers I have heard was the former ROCOR priest with the weeping icon from Philadelphia who has since retired to St. Tikhon's. He brought the icon to Camp Nazareth at Metropolitan Nicholas' invitation for a youth retreat in 2007, to the local UOCUSA parish twice for veneration. But the scars remaining from the less charitable are difficult to erase and to not critique the latest tome from the ROCOR Synod with the benefit of my own experiences would be disengenuous.

As I said, I have tried to qualify my comments with 'many' or 'some' and give positive examples, but truth can not be varnished nor is it 'uncharitable'. Observations can, however, be subjective and to that charge, I admit the same.

Yes. My experience with ROCOR has been blessed and I have met only gentle and humble clergy. In fact, it was an Eastern Catholic clergy who introduced me to the ROCOR and encouraged my journey. If you, or others have scars, I am sorry.

We have been discussing Partiarch Kirill’s letter about the Chambesy process. Some of us agree with his remarks...and some of us do not.

But I don't think there is a need for remarks about the "smugness" of the ROCOR and Her bishops, clergy, and faithful. And there is no reason to start giving personal opinions using remarks such as “fanatics” or “crazy converts.”

Perhaps 'aloofness' with respect to clergy might have been better, but as to folks in the communities where there were schisms, 'smugness' does fit from my experience. I hope that clarifies where I am coming from a bit more succinctly.

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Originally Posted by DMD
Likewise in Clymer, PA when the parish was under interdict from Metropolitan Nicholas due to wilful disobeience and mistreatment of their duly appointed pastor and a large number of the parishioners were specifically under an excommunication (in Orthodox terms imposed by their lawful Bishop for disobedience) the ROCOR had no issue with providing them with a priest, supporting the construction of yet another parish and allowing them into communion

P.S.

You could write many volumes on this particular situation. There are two sides to this story...I am very familiar with it.

Last edited by Recluse; 01/17/14 02:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by DMD
Perhaps 'aloofness' with respect to clergy might have been better

As sinners, we are all guilty of many things.

In my opinion, the ROCOR is a shining example and a light to stand against the secular humanism that permeates this country.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by DMD
The ROCOR's bishops (excepting the saintly +Laurus), many clergy and most faithful exhude a sense of smugness stemming from their sincere belief that they possess a spiritual superiority compared to most others based on the ROCOR'S systemic incorporation of a stern Russian pietetic practice.

Wow! That's an unfortunate statement. You judged the bishops, clergy and faithful of being "smug".....in a sweeping generality.


That is a rather smug statement. frown

Lord have mercy!


The man's a born Orthodox of 60 from a priestly family so he knows his church's politics, so he knows what he's talking about.

Respect.


False appeal to authority. Logical fallacy.

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Like I said, this would get nowhere. Everyone has some shining example that condemns an entire synod. The reality is that I think all of you had some different expectations than the ROCOR synod. And one metropolitan does not make a synod.

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Originally Posted by chadrook
Like I said, this would get nowhere.

You were correct. wink



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By 2050 I believe that 80% of the Orthodox in the US will be in a single jurisdiction that preserves many aspects of their former jurisidctions, somewhat improved version of the OCA.

That is my opinion.

I love ROCOR, even though they really only do things the Russian way and have problems compromising with non russian customs for the time being, thats probably what also gives them their advantages that people appreciate! I agree with Cavaradossi, their theories of non canonical jurisdictions dont make much sense, but their good will and wilingness to preserve things as they see fit is there. The good in them will somehow be a benefit. I think the squables from the past are over. ROCOR has a different generation of people in it than were there in the last three decades.

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Originally Posted by Xristoforos
By 2050 I believe that 80% of the Orthodox in the US will be in a single jurisdiction that preserves many aspects of their former jurisidctions, somewhat improved version of the OCA.

That is my opinion.

I love ROCOR, even though they really only do things the Russian way and have problems compromising with non russian customs for the time being, thats probably what also gives them their advantages that people appreciate! I agree with Cavaradossi, their theories of non canonical jurisdictions dont make much sense, but their good will and wilingness to preserve things as they see fit is there. The good in them will somehow be a benefit. I think the squables from the past are over. ROCOR has a different generation of people in it than were there in the last three decades.

Sounds progressive wink

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Originally Posted by Xristoforos
By 2050 I believe that 80% of the Orthodox in the US will be in a single jurisdiction that preserves many aspects of their former jurisidctions, somewhat improved version of the OCA.

If what you say would come to fruition, and I were still alive in 2050, I'd probably be in the 20%....and that would probably be the ROCOR. grin

But I'll be long gone by then.

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Xristoforos
By 2050 I believe that 80% of the Orthodox in the US will be in a single jurisdiction that preserves many aspects of their former jurisidctions, somewhat improved version of the OCA.

If what you say would come to fruition, and I were still alive in 2050, I'd probably be in the 20%....and that would probably be the ROCOR. grin

But I'll be long gone by then.

Zager and Evans- In the year 2525 wink

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Originally Posted by chadrook
Zager and Evans- In the year 2525 wink

LOL! laugh

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I found Fr. John Whiteford's essay from his blog informative:

ROCOR and the Assembly of Bishops [fatherjohn.blogspot.com]

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