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#404355 03/20/14 11:10 AM
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For those of us who are interested in, as I am, or a member of a Greek Old Calendar Church there was some news yesterday coming out of Greece.

Two of the Old Calendar synods of Bishops are uniting. The Holy Synod in Resistance and the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece(GOC-K)are to be one synod. A very interesting development.

Mystagogy: Old Calendarists Uniting [johnsanidopoulos.com]

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They may do what suits them but to me, as a member of the canonical Orthodox church, the GOC is nothing as they claim that my church, by virtue of its being under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch, is without grace. By joining together there is one less schismatic group out there.

(And my position regarding the UOCKP is not inconsistent. They, unlike the GOD, do not claim that the fourteen Orthodoc churches represented at the upcoming Council are sacramentally deficient - including the UOC-MP or the MP.)

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They may do what suits them but to me, as a member of the canonical Orthodox church, the GOC is nothing as they claim that my church, by virtue of its being under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch, is without grace. By joining together there is one less schismatic group out there.

I didn't mean to suggest that I agree with the theology of the GOC. I am interested in the Old Calendarist because I was one at a point in my life. It is a fascinating and at times confusing world. These two particular Churches are actually on the moderate side of the Old Calendarist movement. In fact the SiR has never denied grace in the New Calendar Church. It has preferred the term "alling” for the New Calendar Church. It will be interesting to see what this union means for moderate Greek Old Calendarist.

I am a Greek Catholic now, so you can imagine what that makes me, if the other Orthodox Churches are without grace, in their eyes. grin

That being said I have nothing but love and respect for my former confreres, even if I disagree with them now. There is much to be admired in their observance of the Orthodox faith.

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I realize the SiR took that position, but the GOC locally really shut themselves off and shun the rest of us. The local parish had some national gathering a couple of years ago billed as some historic meeting of GOC and ROCA bishops and he told the tv reporter the nearest Orthodox church was in Queens. So, if I'm harsh...

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So, if I'm harsh...

Understandable smile

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Yes, we are very thankful and excited for the union. Next step is a joint statement concerning ecumenism.

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When the ROCA and MP restored mutual communion, I said that any time a schism is healed, we're all one step closer towards being reconciled.

But what will this union mean? I've noticed that Greek Old Calendarists split, re-join, and then split again into various configurations like so many globs of mercury (itself poisonous, as you know).

And they are never as happy as when they excommunicate each other.

I'm not going to hold my breath for any lasting communion. Just wait.

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My family background is Presbyterian. There is an old, only partially joking I think, saying that whenever Presbyterians settled a town they founded two churches - the one they would go to and the one they would never attend. Must be human nature.

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Originally Posted by AMM
My family background is Presbyterian. There is an old, only partially joking I think, saying that whenever Presbyterians settled a town they founded two churches - the one they would go to and the one they would never attend. Must be human nature.

I heard that saying before, but it was about ROCOR.

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Originally Posted by DMD
They may do what suits them but to me, as a member of the canonical Orthodox church, the GOC is nothing as they claim that my church, by virtue of its being under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch, is without grace. By joining together there is one less schismatic group out there.

(And my position regarding the UOCKP is not inconsistent. They, unlike the GOD, do not claim that the fourteen Orthodoc churches represented at the upcoming Council are sacramentally deficient - including the UOC-MP or the MP.)

Just to be clear, when the calendar issue began, the first group to claim that the other didn't have Grace in their Mysteries came from the New Calendarists. Many New Calendarist clergy along with the police greatly persecuted the Old Calendarists in Greece & especially Romania by marching into their churches & throwing the Holy Sacraments on the ground and trampling on them, tearing out Old Calendarist priest's beards, and creating Old Calendarist martyrs. I think you should consider that when you call the GOC nothing because of what they say about your church's Sacraments. I'm not saying you have to like or agree with the GOC but you should at least recognize what they've been through.

Also I have heard different ideas about the various Old Calendarist synods that claim that the New Calendarists have no Grace in their Sacraments; some (in the GOC of Greece) say this only refers to the state Church of Greece, others say that you can't pinpoint the exact time that New Calendarists lost/will lose the Grace in their Sacraments, and still others will declare openly that the New Calendarists have Grace in their Sacraments. So even if the GOC officially says one thing about Grace in your Church, there are different views held by both clergy & laity of the GOC. The main concern of the GOC is for one to reject Ecumenism as a heresy & to separate from Ecumenism entirely.

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These sects are in wilful, self imposed schism from the Church. Persecution based on ignorance and anger is wrong and to be condemned, but that does not provide one with a basis to sympathise on the basis of dogma.




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Originally Posted by DMD
These sects are in wilful, self imposed schism from the Church. Persecution based on ignorance and anger is wrong and to be condemned, but that does not provide one with a basis to sympathise on the basis of dogma.

I agree, one should not sympathize on the basis of dogma. And yet even though the Copts have broken off from the Orthodox Church, I would never say I view the Copts as nothing even though I view their beliefs as wrong.

Also, the GOC doesn't view your Church as being without Grace because you're under the EP; they view the state Church of Greece's Sacraments as being without Grace due to the latter's acceptance of the new calendar & Ecumenism.

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Originally Posted by DMD
These sects are in wilful, self imposed schism from the Church. Persecution based on ignorance and anger is wrong and to be condemned, but that does not provide one with a basis to sympathise on the basis of dogma.

I can agree with this statement. However, it is us who is making it. wink

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\\they view the state Church of Greece's Sacraments as being without Grace due to the latter's acceptance of the new calendar & Ecumenism.\\

Ecumenism, like modernism, is a term that has been used more as opprobrium for so long it's lost meaning beyond, "I don't like you!"

What's odd is that the Synod in Resistance (that if Metropolitan Cyprian, if I'm not mistaken) has categorically refused to state that those who follow the New Calendar are without grace. It also, at least until now, not repeated sacraments of other Orthodox who come to them.

What's funny is how some make the Old Calendar the touchstone of true Orthodoxy. Ukrainian Greek Catholics are Old Calendar in Ukraine and elsewhere. So were the Ruthenians in the USA at one time.

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I forgot to mention the contrary stands of groups in this "union" might illustrate the Biblical proverb: Can two walk together if they are not in agreement?

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