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When I joined my current parish a couple years ago, I was a little surprised and perhaps a little unhappy to see kids parading into an Eastern church all in white looking like it was "First Communion." I had asked about it here - it was a new experience to me and it never happened in the Orthodox churches I attended with my relatives. (Most of my relatives had Baptism/Communion/Chrismation - but I had the Roman sacraments.) Anyway, in my own limited experience the "First Communion" pageantry seemed a little out of place and I was confused by it. But perhaps my own experience is too limited to be definitive?!

I figure that in public workship, when in Rome do as the Romans do - but when in Byzantium do as the Byzantines do and don't try to make one in the image of the other. When I asked about this here before, someone had suggested that what I experienced was probably just intended more as a photo op for the parents. But if parents want a photo op for their own kids, then they can surely make a big deal for their own kids without introducing new or out of place practices.

I just don't know. So I'm really interested to see what folks in the know say here.

Dear Anne,

Well, I only know what I know!

Our parishes up here have "Byzantinized" the First Holy Communion.

The children wear the embroidered shirts and blouses that are made from the white cloth they were wrapped in at the time of their Baptism.

They carry a Prayer Rope with them after careful catechesis using a really excellent book that puts things in true Byzantine perspective.

Among things the priest gets them to do is have a procession with icons etc.

The focus is on the Confession ie. that from now on they must be responsible for their actions.

It is also an opportunity to learn more about their faith and to get some encouragement to get involved in the liturgical life of the Church in future.

In my parish, this is more than a "photo-op." The Divine Liturgy for those having their First Confession and Solemn Holy Communion is long, the Church is packed and it is almost like an ordination or something of the sort .

Our Church's "Orthofanatics" are against this because of its connection to the Latin First Holy Communion. But there are many benefits to be derived from this, benefits that would not be had if this practice wouldn't be observed. And better it be observed as "First Confession and Solemn Holy Communion" rather than "First Holy Communion."

In any event, our parishes observe this "religiously" no matter what.

Even our "May Devotion" has been Byzantinized. People are used to going to Church every day in May. At least now they participate in an Eastern Paraclesis service and in the Akathist on weekends.

Let us also remember that the Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine not only has and even promotes Stations of the Cross et alia, but also the devotion to the Sacred Heart.

If they can adapt, we can too.

Alex

Alex,
I can never understand you. One time your toung is razor sharp.Then the next time you speak it is with reserve and understanding.

Is that a Yogi Berra quote?

Sounds like one....

ChristTeen287

90% of Christianity is 50% theological!

"Let us also remember that the Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine not only has and even promotes Stations of the Cross et alia, but also the devotion to the Sacred Heart."

I had always thpought that the sacred heart, the immaculate heart, the corpus christi, the representations of the passion, etc. were like a kind of "naturalism". How accurate is this?

OrthodoxCatholic<<"Let us also remember that the Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine not only has and even promotes Stations of the Cross et alia, but also the devotion to the Sacred Heart.">>

Alex, do you have actual documentation of this? I can see this happening in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches in Western Ukraine due to the heavy Polish RC influence that may still be lingering, but in the Orthodox churches too? Then even they need to rediscover their Byzantine Orthodox roots and de-Latinize if this is indeed the case!

OrthodoxEast

Dear Chad,

I apologise for offending you with my razor-sharp tongue!

What cutting comment was it in particular that you found off-putting?

If you show me, I will withdraw it. (Was it "Orthofanatics?")

This term is what some Ukies use to describe their own Catholics who want to be more Orthodox than the Orthodox. It has nothing to do with the Orthodox themselves, but describes a particular mindset with respect to Eastern liturgical purism.

Alex

Daer OrthodoxEast,

Actually, I have some Orthodox prayer texts for these devotions that my in-laws brought back for me after their last visit to Ukraine.

Subdeacon Peter Siwicki also presented a link to an interview in Polish on this very question where the journalist asked, "But devotion to the Sacred Heart isn't practiced by the Orthodox!" And to which the respondent replied, "But it is in our western parishes to keep the former Catholics happy." - words to that effect.

The Stations of the Cross include a 15th Station for the Resurrection and the entire devotion is cast in a Byzantine liturgical framework - quite amazing indeed. (I can send you a copy if you like).

(Be careful of your hands so that I don't, inadvertently, cut you with my 'razor-sharp' tongue - and I guess this means that, for me, tongue in cheek can be dangerous).

A Greek CAtholic priest from there also showed me an Orthodox prayerbook that contained the "Supplication" Service for prayer before a Monstrance!

Latinizations? To be sure. But this is the overall impact of 1946 when many Eastern Catholics came into the Orthodox Church and the (largely Russian) hierarchs made the pastoral decision to allow the Latin devotions these people were used to.

Was it the first time such Latin devotions occurred in the Orthodox Church? Not at all.

The Kyivan Baroque period and the Russian Church after the time of Peter the Great were full of Latin devotions.

There were even Orthodox Brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception that took the Bloody Vow ie. to defend to the death the Immaculate Conception.

The Rosary was popular - even the great St Seraphim of Sarov himself prayed the 15 decade Rosary DAILY and got his spiritual children to do so as well. The same is true of St Seraphim Vyritsky and St Seraphim Zvezdinsky (see "Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint, Chapter six).

The Jordanville Prayerbook contains the "Tale of the Five Prayers" - and that is a form of the Rosary of the Sorrows of the Mother of God promoted by St Dmitri of Rostov!

There you have it.

Alex

Dear Remie,

Certainly, the Baroque period celebrated naturalism and ornateness in art etc.

It was due to Western influence, but then again it would have been impossible not to have come under Western influence in the Europe of the 17th century.

Orthodox aristocracy was defecting to the Jesuits and Roman Catholicism en masse (no pun intended).

It wasn't a battle between two religions, but a battle fought in terms of "which faith is better" in terms of education, learning and influence.

But the Orthodox Church seemed not to have a problem adapting itself to the new cultural challenges and I think modern theologians who criticize Orthodoxy for its "Baroque enslavement" should: a) get a life; b) get a better understanding of the times.

God bless,

Alex

Esteemed Brothers and Sisters,

This weekend, we had the joy of baptizing, chrismating, and giving the eucharist to our infant daughter.

My step sons, ages 6 and 9, baptized as infants in the Latin rite, received chrismation as well. However, after pastoral counsel, we decided to have them wait for the eucharist: not because they need to have a thorough intellectual understanding of the sacrament (who can truly comprehend it?), but because they are not as prepared as they could be to appreciate it.

The nine year old - and to a lesser extent the six year old- should have an understanding and experience of confession. They do not. It seems to be the individual's capacity for self-evaluation and repentance that determines "worthiness" to receive the sacrament. So we want to better prepare them. Of course, their (lack of) preparation has been and is the responsibility of their parents, and it is our aim to get them thoroughly "up to speed" ASAP.

The transition from not practicing to practicing the faith, and from Roman to Eastern Rite requires some application of the "economia" principle: but we are grateful that ultimately, both rites belong to the church, and that God gives his graces freely to us, the undeserving!

Rejoicing,
Robert

It is not that you offend me it is just that I am having a hard time figuring out just what the tradition is and if it is Byzantine.I know that people are always going to add cultural and regional differances to every argument.But it boils down to the fact that in the canon the child will recieve at baptism and that is it.So to my military mind it is up to the parents to explain this to them.And the church to reenforce the traditions and laws.

Dear Chad,

Well, let me throw another monkey-wrench into the machinery here . . .

In the Ukrainian Catholic Church, you will find parishes where only the Mystery of Baptism is given, parishes where the first two are given, as in Robert's case above (congratulations Robert, by the way!) and parishes where all three sacraments of initiation are given.

What is the Byzantine tradition? We know it is the three sacraments given together.

When I was baptized, I received the first two Sacraments only. My parents actually refused to allow me to go to Communion before the age of seven, even when I begged them to let me go!

And they and others considered this to be the "Byzantine Tradition."

For Ukrainians and others, the "Byzantine tradition" has to do with becoming a member not of an abstract "Byzantine Church" or what-not, but with becoming a member of the Ukrainian Church.

How that is accomplished seems less important to them than the FACT that it is done in a Ukrainian Church within the context of a Ukrainian community.

That is changing slowly as more and more parishes become "Orthodox in communion with Rome" as opposed to "Byzantine Rite Ukrainian (Roman) Catholic."

A big problem we ethnic churches have is that our Church was the only institution, under Soviet Communism and the Turkish domination, that could and did maintain our national cultural identity intact, despite the oppression etc.

Our Churches tend to still be like that and I don't have a problem with that as long as Christ isn't replaced by secular nationalism or, as I heard one fellow say in a speech before our bishops and priests, "We support the Church because it has always had a crucial role to play among our people."

The latter statement gave me cause for great concern. We have a cultural Christianity in place, it would seem, where the Gospel is quite incidental to the main focus on the community and sense of peoplehood. The Gospel,in that case, is truly subordinate to secular ideals.

Alex

Alex,

Thanks. Did I miscommunicate somehow? Our newborn received all three sacraments, not just two.

The older boys received chrismation, but we felt it wiser to withhold the Eucharist because of their lack of preparation for it as related to their capacity to "examine themselves" as St. Paul exhorts all believers to do before they receive the Eucharist.

Although I was eager to share my joy, my previous post also had a point relating to this thread: that administration of the sacraments is dependent upon the preparedness of the recipient relative to his capacity.

Is there anything "un-Byzantine" in our reasoning here?

Dear Prodigal Son!

I misunderstood, silly me!

(I don't have a fatted calf I can prepare to celebrate your family's auspicious occasion, alas!).

Nothing un-Byzantine. Children who received the Sacraments of Initiation at Baptism approach the Eucharist in the East without needing confession until about seven - a symbolic number at best meaning "Fullness of age."

After that, they must attend Confession and ever after.

It is great, I must say, that you take such a direct interest and participation in your children's spiritual formation!

You are truly a "God"-father!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Our older children (the first four) received their Baptism in the Latin Church. Then I canonically transferred to the Armenian Church. On the occasion of our fifth child's Baptism, we had one big ceremony in which we Chrismated those who were already Baptized while our fifth child was Baptized and Chrismated.

Yet the Armenian Catholics are still Latinized and do not allow children Holy Communion until the "age of reason." Therefore, I had to visit our nearby Melkite parish to complete our children's initiation by having them receive Holy Communion there. Infact the first food other than his mother's milk to enter our son Anthony's mouth was the precious Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was his first solid. The joy I experienced to have my entire family receive Holy Communion together equalled that of seeing them born into this world.

I have a heartfelt conviction that it is their sacred right as Eastern Christians to be fed with the Body and Blood of Christ from their infancy. I'm working on getting this corrected in the Armenian Church along with my pastor.

I think it is a great disapppointment when Armenian Orthodox visit our parish and their children are allowed Holy Communion while ours are denied. What, are their children more worthy than ours? Are they not all innocent children of God?

I know many Eastern parishes have tweaked the Latin tradition to make it "work" for them. I don't think, in the long run, it benefits ecumenism, or our witness as "Orthodox in communion with Rome" to maintain such curruptions. I know things take time and therefore we must be paitient, but I pray the day will come when such things are put right. Surely our authentic Tradition had ways of passing on the faith sufficiently without us being dependent on such hybrids.

As Alex mentioned, our parish also does the "May is dedicated to Mary" tradition. They cart around a Latin statue and pray the Rosary every night. I have great respect for such devotion. But surely our own authentic Armenian tradition has prayers and images which should more than suffice for these Latin ones.

I say, let the Latins maintain their Latin Tradition. May God grant us Eastern Christians the courage to restore and maintain our own.

As always this is just my insignificant opinion.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian Wolfe