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Originally Posted by Justin Oelgoetz
That is an interesting point -- the Pontifical Institute of Oriental Studies is an Institute. In my experience as an academic, Institutes do not have their own faculty, they borrow/leverage faculty from the colleges, schools, departments, universities, etc that establish and maintain the institute. Does anyone know if it is free standing entity? Given that you can't donate directly to the Institute (you really make a donation to the Gregorian, which is earmarked for the Pontifical Institute of Oriental Studies), it might not be. The real question then might be, will Fr. Constantin keep his position at whatever entity loans him to the Pontifical Institute of Oriental Studies (and as a side note that entity might be the Society of Jesus).Justin
It is my understanding that the Institute itself has faculties in Eastern Church Studies and Eastern Canon Law.


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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I suppose it is because ECs are supposed to believe everything the Oriental or Eastern Orthodox believe...
That is incorrect. Pope Saint John Paul II made that clear in Ad Tuendam Fidem , which added new canons to the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches:

Quote
Canon 598§ 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

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Dear Griego,

Your quote is far too general for particular application here.

Given the ecumenical talks and growth of the EC Churches in their legitimate theological, canonical and spiritual traditions and what is understood about what unites the Roman and Orthodox communions in terms of faith - EC's indeed accept everything that the Orthodox East accepts and are every bit as Catholic.

We can go over a number of points, such as the Immaculate Conception, and how this reflects a decidedly Latin Church perspective.

But in pith and Substance, while the East rejects the IC, it has NEVER held that the Mother of God the Word ever had any sin on her soul. The Orthodox East also has a different understanding of Original Sin as well.

But there are threads galore here that have discussed this and other issues to death.

Suffice it to say that your quote does not prove what you want it to prove.

Alex

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I suppose it is because ECs are supposed to believe everything the Oriental or Eastern Orthodox believe...
That is incorrect. Pope Saint John Paul II made that clear in Ad Tuendam Fidem , which added new canons to the Code of Canons of Eastern Churches:

Quote
Canon 598§ 1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All Christian faithful are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.

§ 2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely, those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Good post, relating to the earlier discussion:

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Michael,

In fact, EC's accept, and are obliged to accept everything every other Catholic, of whatever Particular Church or Rite, accepts.

EC's can and do couch things in an Eastern way and they may drop the Filioque etc.

But in reality everything the Latins believe, we believe - whether overtly or not.
Re the highlighted portion, I'd prefer to say "are supposed to" rather than the strict "are obliged to" (not to split hairs). Regardless I think what you saying greatly needs to be said, especially because many Latin (or CAF) Catholics seem to view ECism as a kind of ghetto. frown

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Griego,

Your quote is far too general for particular application here.

Given the ecumenical talks and growth of the EC Churches in their legitimate theological, canonical and spiritual traditions and what is understood about what unites the Roman and Orthodox communions in terms of faith - EC's indeed accept everything that the Orthodox East accepts and are every bit as Catholic.

We can go over a number of points, such as the Immaculate Conception, and how this reflects a decidedly Latin Church perspective.

But in pith and Substance, while the East rejects the IC, it has NEVER held that the Mother of God the Word ever had any sin on her soul. The Orthodox East also has a different understanding of Original Sin as well.

But there are threads galore here that have discussed this and other issues to death.

Suffice it to say that your quote does not prove what you want it to prove.

Alex

Alex,

We will have to agree to disagree, my friend. smile

Michael_Thoma's comment was like "Zogbhy Inititaive redux", so I believed it necessary to respond with Rome's response. As you said, this has been discussed to death and I don't want to have this discussion get detracted from my original post.

God bless,

GC

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Dear Griego,

Not so fast sir! smile

I don't subscribe to the Zoghby initiative myself so let's put that up on the shelf, shall we?

I'm referring here only to the quote that you gave and we can say that EC's can, in truth, accept everything that Orthodoxy teaches (save the communion with Rome thingy).

Liturgically, EC's already follow this line of theological thinking for the most part.

Also, Rome's response with respect to Orthodoxy isn't the last word as yet. Roman Catholic theologians have come out, for example, as being very much against the inclusion of the Filioque in the Nicene Creed and the like.

Fr. John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) would often get the great Orientalist Fr. Gustav Weigel SJ to review his draft books before publication - and you know what? Fr. Weigel would often chide Fr. Meyendorff for being "too easy" on the Latins re: the Filioque!

Believe it or not . . .

Alex

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Originally Posted by JBenedict
]
Furthermore, not all Jesuits priests make this vow. There are two categories of Jesuit priests those that make this fourth vow and those that make the ordinary vows of any religious (called "spirtual coadjutors.")

Also, the leadership is drawn exclusively from those taking the fourth vow.

I would assume that a university vice-chancellor would be from that group, but . . .

hawk

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
I don't subscribe to the Zoghby initiative myself
That's certainly understandable.

In any case, I think many posters (here and elsewhere) make too much of the Zoghby Initiative. I doubt that anyone, among experts at least, expected the AOC to "cave" upon hearing the Initiative ... it is merely a proposal from our side, that establishes where we stand. There hasn't been a counter-proposal from the AOC -- or I guess we could say that their counter-proposal is just what they have always proposed.

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Originally Posted by dochawk
Also, the leadership is drawn exclusively from those taking the fourth vow. I would assume that a university vice-chancellor would be from that group, but . . .

Hawk,

Not the case. To hold a spiritual/ecclesiastical office or position within the Society requires that the individual have taken the fourth vow. Novice masters, superiors, and those who hold offices such as rector of a community are selected from those of the fourth vow.

But the same is not true of those who hold administrative leadership positions within such as an educational institution or even in a religious house (such as the Father Minister - essentially the administrator of a community).

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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On the other hand, such conversions might offer amunition to those who believe that to come too close to Orthodoxy - spiritually, canonically and otherwise - leaves one open to the idea of becoming "fully Orthodox."

"Eastern" Ukrainian Catholics used to make fun of "Latinized" ones who were in fear of Orthodoxy as individuals who were afraid of "getting the schismatic bug . . ." smile

To this day, there are UGCC writers who maintain that their Church was never Latinized at all.

They say this because the idea of a UGCC without its Latin and Latin-inspired traditions might put it on the fast-track to unification with Orthodoxy (the Kyivan Patriarchate, of course . . .).

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It seems very odd that we would quibble here over what does or doesn't constitute schism. I would expect that when a man makes a conscious public choice to leave one and join another, we could just take him at his word.

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Dear JDC,

Don't know who is quibbling about "schism."

Yes, we take the man at his word. But the point is that given the positives Rome emphasizes with respect to Orthodoxy, the question is about whether entering communion with Orthodoxy constitutes "schism" from Rome's perspective which doesn't apply that word to the ecclesial status of Orthodoxy any longer.

This doesn't apply to the Orthodox perspective toward Rome - in that case, RC's are simply heretics fumbling about in the outer darkness . . .

Alex

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Originally Posted by JDC
It seems very odd that we would quibble here over what does or doesn't constitute schism. I would expect that when a man makes a conscious public choice to leave one and join another, we could just take him at his word.
Certainly, JDC. I'm not seeking to judge the heart of anyone who "schisms" from Orthodoxy to become Catholic (in the Roman Communion) or from Catholicism to become Orthodox.

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Very good post, Peter!!

Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Very good post, Peter!!

Alex

Merci.

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