www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Slavonic anaphora 2004

Father Toth - yes!
Saint???? Really?

Pavloosh,

Really!

Not sure from whence comes the surprise? Did you not know that he had been canonized by the Orthodox Church? Or, perhaps, you've forgotten that this is a pan-Eastern forum and proudly numbers among its members both Catholics and Orthodox of every stripe, as well as faithful of other Churches, Apostolic and otherwise.

I would expect that most, if not all, of our Eastern Orthodox brethren venerate Father Toth as St Alexis of Wilkes-Barre and I can confidently state that there are some Eastern Catholic members who do likewise.

Many years,

Neil

Right, if the other side calls him a saint, I understand.

If some of our people do, while privately you may venerate anyone, it sounds like a need for better catechesis.

Not sure who 'our people' are - 'my people' are Eastern and Oriental Christians, Catholic and Orthodox. As to the need for better catechesis, we can always all use better catechesis, but this doesn't seem to me to be one of the reasons therefor.

Many years,

Neil

Typical byzcath: "Mad at the Catholics? 'Dox! We're both the true church."

You will answer to God for anyone who leaves the church because of your counsel in this forum.

There's a true sense to what you wrote: the Eastern families of churches are, for the most part, estranged parts of our family. Because they've never dogmatized heresy and still have bishops and the Mass.

Publicly venerating someone who, though under duress (in a big way he was a victim), left the church, knowingly and defending it in principle, or promoting private veneration of him, crosses the line. No sale.

Which line exactly?

It's not precisely a clearcut case. Since we can, I think, all agree that he was badly treated by Archbishop Ireland, even if we agree that he committed the material sin of schism, whether he was guilty of the formal sin of schism is a harder question, given that the duress he was under would militate against his consent.

Then the question is, what is a saint... a saint doesn't have to be free from all sins during their lifetime! A saint can make bad decisions and mistakes.

But if we are to follow the "nec plus" rule of St. Pius X, Russian Catholics at least certainly get a whole host of Saints who certainly knew of Catholicism and didn't join it. It's not clear that Fr. Toth is in a worse position than many of those. St. Mark of Ephesus?

I don't see that this is a true statement. I see respect for those who grew up on either side of the fence, and that same respect for those (like yourself) who have lived on both sides of the fence. But, for the most part, I see people echoing Saint John Paul II when he indicated that the only thing that was needed for communion is communion (together with a "tear down that fence" cry to the bishops).

That's always true. However, I doubt that many people move from one church to another based upon something they read on an internet forum (be it this one or any other one).

That's probably the best way to approach things. All who are baptized are part of the Church, though imperfectly. And we extend in invitation to those who do not know Christ the fact that He died and rose for them....

Well, if you read Saint John Paul II, did Father Toth really leave the Church if the Church teaches that Orthodoxy has a "profound", "though imperfect" communion? While I would not advocate public veneration of Father Alexis, I will note that the Lord certainly is considerate of those who are hurt by sinful events in the church and trust in His mercy.

As this thread has ceased to have anything to do with the Slavonic Anaphora (which is always beautiful), I will give myself the last word on it and close the thread. Please feel free to start new threads with appropriate topic names.