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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
I saw on the MP English website that Met. Hilarion is in Rome and scheduled to meet with the Pope and others. Now diplomatic niceties would preclude having the UGCC Patriarch as a part of the Vatican delegation BUT it would be great if say Archbishop Cyril Vasil was. I'd like to see those photos. But, Rome won't do that.....
You can see the photos here. [mospat.ru]

The group photo is priceless and the twinkle in the Pope's eye is great....Good for him, I've sure the bureaucrats were not happy.

I also suspect the the Pope conveyed clearly that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics would not be entering any time soon into a unified, independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church in alliance with the UOC-KP and that those who speculated about such an arrangement did not have the Vatican's support.

The Patriarch of Moscow fears the loss of revenue from Ukraine and her pious faithful as much as anything....

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Originally Posted by DMD
Now diplomatic niceties would preclude having the UGCC Patriarch as a part of the Vatican delegation BUT it would be great if say Archbishop Cyril Vasil was. I'd like to see those photos. But, Rome won't do that.....

I don't believe an Eastern Catholic is ever a part of a Vatican delegation involving the Russian Orthodox Church.

Here is last year's group photo: link. [mospat.ru]

Here is this year's: link. [mospat.ru]

They both involve almost the same members.

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Originally Posted by DMD
... that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics would not be entering any time soon into a unified, independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church ...
Hey, stop trying to drag common sense in. (wag finger menacingly)

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Pavloosh
Wonder if [Metropolitan Hilarion] had the gall to again lambaste the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
Looks like he did.
Quote
On 17 October 2014, Metropolitan Hilarion ... shared his deep concern about the involvement of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in the political conflict on the side of the forces hostile to the Russian Orthodox Church. Metropolitan Hilarion expressed his hope that the Greek Catholics will revise their position, renounce unilateral politicized declarations and stop support for the schism.
I would like to know just what Met. Hilarion means by "forces hostile to the Russian Orthodox Church." Is he actually trying to conflate the ROC with the Russian government?

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Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
I saw on the MP English website that Met. Hilarion is in Rome and scheduled to meet with the Pope and others. Now diplomatic niceties would preclude having the UGCC Patriarch as a part of the Vatican delegation BUT it would be great if say Archbishop Cyril Vasil was. I'd like to see those photos. But, Rome won't do that.....
You can see the photos here. [mospat.ru]

The group photo is priceless and the twinkle in the Pope's eye is great....Good for him, I've sure the bureaucrats were not happy.

I also suspect the the Pope conveyed clearly that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics would not be entering any time soon into a unified, independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church in alliance with the UOC-KP and that those who speculated about such an arrangement did not have the Vatican's support.

The Patriarch of Moscow fears the loss of revenue from Ukraine and her pious faithful as much as anything....

Yes, I don't think the UGCC will be entering into full union with the UOC-KP either! wink

If it ever did, however, that would "neuter" the UGCC permanently as part of a body (KP) that is affirmed by both Rome and Orthodoxy as being uncanonical etc.

In fact, the UGCC is much too adamant in its loyalty to Rome to even consider that . . .

That doesn't preclude the much more serious threat to the MP from the UGCC - namely its strong, ecumenical/cooperative ties with the KP and UAOC (for example, there are parishes in western Ukraine where both EC's and "uncanonical Orthodox" share the same church building and have yet to try and kill each other in so doing).

For all intents and purposes, the UGCC and "uncanonical Orthodox" are already acting "in synergy" as one community within the context of mutual understanding and love for one another.

That has already happened and is already occurring and without the blessing from anyone external to that relationship.

As for loss of resources, the MP has already suffered a great deal of that when the UGCC came alive again in 1991-onwards and has been growing by leaps and bounds since (including gaining tremendous respect among Orthodox Christians etc.).

Most of the vocations to the ROC in Soviet times (are they over yet?) came from . . . western Ukraine. The people there are very pious and were so when they were formally Orthodox after the pseudo-sobor of 1946. For example,95% of the people of the Ternopil region affirm they are Greek Catholic, even though they were formally Orthodox for so many years under the USSR and its "Soviet Orthodox Church" (as one ROCOR priest described it to me once). Priestly candidates from that region went to the Moscow Theological Academy for studies and were ordained in the ROC (like an uncle of mine), but when the UGCC became legal in 1991, they, for the most part, joined the UGCC as that is what they always were from their youth - repression notwithstanding.

Why hasn't the ROC ever publicly repented of its actions with respect to the UGCC and "ecclesiacide?" Or of the suffering it caused for so many people when it forced their conversion to the ROC?

And why does the ROC not respect the right of individual parishes of the UOC-MP to move away from it? Why does it not recognize situations where parishes democratically vote to separate from it? Why does the MP think these parishes want to separate from it? What has it done to address the concerns that are clearly going unaddressed, preferring instead to blame "agitators" and "mobs?"

Alex

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Then I'm not certain why Rome is styled as having "imperial ambitions" and "subjugating" in relation to the Church in Milan or Aquileia, while the MP is not in relation to the Church in Ukraine.

Perhaps you can explain what you perceive to be the difference.

Blessings

Originally Posted by Cavaradossi
Originally Posted by mardukm
By analogy, would you say the MP has "imperial ambitions" and is subjugating the Ukranian Church?
There is no Canonical Ukrainian Church except for the autonomous one under the Moscow Patriarchate. In other words, there is no Canonical Ukrainian Church for the Moscow Patriarchate to subjugate, as the only one is the one which is an autonomous church within the Moscow Patriarchate. Though some here may find this to be mean or distasteful, all other Christian religious bodies in Ukraine cannot, by Orthodox ecclesiological standards, be considered to be Churches, but only as what St. Basil refers to as conventicles (also called parasynagogues after the original Greek term) in his first canon, taken from Ep. 188.

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The issue is not the deposing authority, but the elective authority. If an authority outside that local Church can affect who or who is not deposed, then it certainly does affect who can subsequently be elected in place of the one who is deposed.

Hence, local Churches do not have complete autocephaly by the very definition of the word - which is why I will put "autocephalous" in quotes (i.e., autocephalous for the most part, but not completely).

Blessings

Originally Posted by Cavaradossi
Originally Posted by mardukm
And yet, every patriarch who was deposed by their Synod could appeal to the bishop of Rome or an Ecum Council, and, if it was merited, the Synod's deposition would be overturned.

So a patriarch's status was not a purely internal matter for an "autocephalous" church.

The definition of an Autocephalous Church does not include the ability to depose bishops unjustly at will. It refers to the synod's ability to ordain a primate without the participation of an external entity.

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Originally Posted by mardukm
Then I'm not certain why Rome is styled as having "imperial ambitions" and "subjugating" in relation to the Church in Milan or Aquileia, while the MP is not in relation to the Church in Ukraine.

That is a great question as the nature of culture and language on the Italian peninsula could be viewed as somewhat analogous to the nature of the culture and languages among the Rus. We tend to forget about the Italian City states and their relationship with the Papacy and the Papal States. Obviously the greatest distinction is that there is no direct Slavic counterpart to the nature of the Papal States. But an interesting question none the less...

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My understanding from my ROC experience is that the true ROC is found in those who were/are referred to as the Underground Church in Russia... who've suffered martyrdoms and are still the objects of "MP" strong-arming. An understanding of what took place shortly after the 'official' beginning of the Bolshevik takeover.. Sergianism (named after Sergius Stradorovsky, Stalin's puppet 'patriarch')... the 'setting up' of the MP under the bolshevik/Stalinist/Soviet regimes... the past connections (KGB) of today's claimants to be the authentic, historical MP and official organ of the ROC... all of this must be, if possible, accurately understood before a casual 'granting of credence' is given to the contemporary 'MP' whose roots trace back to,again, the Bolshevik/Stalinist machinations and subsequent Soviet Rule.
I left the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia because of their union with this 'MP'. I am unable by informed conscience to accept this "MP" as a legitimate heir to the TRUE Moscow Patriarchs and Synods that were forced into the underground and persecution following the the Bolshevik takeover and subsequent slaughter of millions of Orthodox (and other Christians). Questions like Alex's are more readily answered, IMHO, when standing in the vantage point I have just outlined (and mentioned previously). Misplaced hopes and alliances are everywhere, it seems, these days. A reading of ST.Philaret of New York's s 'Sorrowful Epistles' would be instructive. His incorrupt body is at the Holy Trinity Mosnastery in Jordanville, New York.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Ivanov

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If my history is correct, i recall that the Greek Catholics were probably not as persecuted in Tsarist Russia (at least up until 1839) as they were under the Bolsheviks and their modern successors. But that's a matter of degree and debate.

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Originally Posted by Ivanov325
With regard to 'Metropolitan' Hilarion, I think he unwittingly does a a service by highlighting the Eastern Catholics as well as those Orthodox in Ukraine who are NOT in communion with the alleged "Moscow Patriarchate", as the troublemakers. Coming from this man and his Stalinist-facilitated "MP", I rejoice in the opposite being true. When he speaks, perhaps it is best to open a window with haste, and allow the fruit of his ecclesiological, ecumenical flatulance to dissipate of its own accord. Better to call a wolf a wolf, than to wait for the dna tests to come back. Revolutionaries are experts at buying time as generations pass in incredulity.

Ivanov

Bravo, sir, bravo!

Alex

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Originally Posted by Ivanov325
My understanding from my ROC experience is that the true ROC is found in those who were/are referred to as the Underground Church in Russia... who've suffered martyrdoms and are still the objects of "MP" strong-arming. An understanding of what took place shortly after the 'official' beginning of the Bolshevik takeover.. Sergianism (named after Sergius Stradorovsky, Stalin's puppet 'patriarch')... the 'setting up' of the MP under the bolshevik/Stalinist/Soviet regimes... the past connections (KGB) of today's claimants to be the authentic, historical MP and official organ of the ROC... all of this must be, if possible, accurately understood before a casual 'granting of credence' is given to the contemporary 'MP' whose roots trace back to,again, the Bolshevik/Stalinist machinations and subsequent Soviet Rule.
I left the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia because of their union with this 'MP'. I am unable by informed conscience to accept this "MP" as a legitimate heir to the TRUE Moscow Patriarchs and Synods that were forced into the underground and persecution following the the Bolshevik takeover and subsequent slaughter of millions of Orthodox (and other Christians). Questions like Alex's are more readily answered, IMHO, when standing in the vantage point I have just outlined (and mentioned previously). Misplaced hopes and alliances are everywhere, it seems, these days. A reading of ST.Philaret of New York's s 'Sorrowful Epistles' would be instructive. His incorrupt body is at the Holy Trinity Mosnastery in Jordanville, New York.

Pray for me, a sinner.

Ivanov

Dear Ivanov,

I have a strong veneration for any Saint of ROCOR - was St Filaret of New York glorified by ROCOR? Or was it by other Orthodox jurisdictions?

Could he be glorified by ROCOR/is it thinking of doing so?

Alex

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I have a strong veneration for any Saint of ROCOR - was St Filaret of New York glorified by ROCOR? Or was it by other Orthodox jurisdictions?

Could he be glorified by ROCOR/is it thinking of doing so?

The saintly Metropolitan Filaret was glorified by Russian Orthodox Church Abroad under Metropolitan Agafangel, the one ROCOR bishop who did not submit to the reunion between ROCOR and the MP, and the Greek Old Calendar Church.

Glorification of Metropolitan Filaret [hsir.org]

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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
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I have a strong veneration for any Saint of ROCOR - was St Filaret of New York glorified by ROCOR? Or was it by other Orthodox jurisdictions?

Could he be glorified by ROCOR/is it thinking of doing so?

The saintly Metropolitan Filaret was glorified by Russian Orthodox Church Abroad under Metropolitan Agafangel, the one ROCOR bishop who did not submit to the reunion between ROCOR and the MP, and the Greek Old Calendar Church.

Glorification of Metropolitan Filaret [hsir.org]

According to Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org], he was glorified several times:

Quote
Metropolitan Philaret was canonized by the number of non-canonical church groups, which derive their succession from the ROCOR.

On May 19 – 20, 2001 Metropolitan Philaret was glorified by the Holy Orthodox Church in North America ("Boston Synod").

On April 30, 2003 Metropolitan Philaret was glorified by the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church.

On November 20, 2008 Metropolitan Philaret was glorified by the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad headed by Metropolitan Agathangel (Pashkovsky).

On October 23, 2009 Metropolitan Philaret was glorified at Holy Transfiguration Skete by the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad headed by archbishop Vladimir (Tselischev).

These glorifications have not been recognized by other Orthodox groups, however.

In 2012, the Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR established a committee to explore the formal glorification of Metropolitan Philaret by the canonical Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.
Video of his glorification:
Part One [youtube.com]
Part Two [youtube.com]

Orthodoxwiki
[orthodoxwiki.org] lists the following:
Quote
TROPARION, Tone 4:
As one equal to the Apostles. and enthroned among the hierarchs of Russia O Godly-wise cultivator of the Russian diaspora, zealot of Orthodoxy, confessor of Christ's love, O hierarch father Philaret pray to Christ God, to establish unity of mind in the Church of our fathers, and to save our souls.
KONTAKION, Tone 4:
The hierarchs of Christ today stand in the assembly of the saints, and with the angelic choirs pray to God for us; together with them also the hierarch of the Lord Philaret, a canon of faith and icon of meekness, who appeared to his flock as a teacher of continence, having acquired by humility things lofty and by poverty riches, he intercedeth for our souls.

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Thank you for your replies re: St. Philaret! As you are probably aware, he reposed in 1985, and prior to his repose he 'prophesied' that upon his repose ROCOR would break in 3 directions...1. The Greeks would leave "as they were never with us", 2. "those who love the glory of this world will go to Moscow", and 3. the faithful will remain. When I left ROCOR/MP, I found no solace among any of the numerous ROCOR splinter groups... none whatsoever, including the followers of Met + Agafangel. A closer look at his genesis, movements up and back-and-forth in ROCOR and negativity/slander towards the non-MP Russian Orthodox who are, and have been, actually suffering persecution IN Russia (ROAC and RTOC being chief among them) prevented me from casting a lot with them (among other things). Much more that I could say, but I am not able to wade back into the deeply painful residual miasma that WAS ROCOR, and yet claims to be. I believe St. Philaret of NY must have suffered an interior agony that would kill most of us. I have spoken at length with a man who knew him and spent time with him on occasion. I am so saddened about what happened in the last two and a half to three decades (and longer actually) that brought about the devastation that was realized in the strange and coercive 'union' of the Laurus Synod (ROCOR) and their followers with the Putin/Kirill machine that calls itself the MP and the ROC.
Please pray for all the dear souls caught up in the MP/"Russia-rising" propaganda. It seems that truly hungry souls are the most vulnerable and will more readily eat what is set before them impulsively. I was one of those souls.
Again, so good to read your replies, dear brothers in Christ Our Lord!

A sinner, greatly loved.

Ivanov

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