www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Crossing of Arms

Dear all,

...paragraph deleted by moderator...


It should be very obvious that the idea of humbling oneself is appropriate at all times and in particular at the time of Holy Communion, perhaps a short read of part of the prayer which is said after Holy Communion indicates the idea of humility. Do keep in mind that the canons before and after Holy Communion quite plainly convey the idea of humility.


Part of the typical Orthodox Prayer after Holy communion.

(I thank Thee, O Lord my God, that Thou hast not rejected me, a sinner, but hast suffered me to be a partaker of Thy holy things. I thank Thee that, unworthy as I am, Thou hast enabled me to receive of Thy most pure and heavenly gifts.)

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

I thank everyone who has helped me with information on this. By the way, Fr. Daniel Findikyan of the Armenian Church who's given talks at St. Vladimir's, teaches that nearly everything we do in the Liturgy began by necessity and was given theological meaning later. So this does not surprise me in referrence to crossing our arms. My pastor recently stated that this was the way to receive Communion. I'm not sure if this is our Tradition or if he is borrowing it from the Slavic Tradition (He did attend St. Vladimir's). Btw, Alice, how do Greeks receive?

Thanks again,
Ghazar

Yes, crossing arms across one's chest is very practical indeed... How can anyone eat a pretzel modelled on anything else?!?

John, who is a Traditionalist when it comes to the shape of pretzels

Mary Jo,

as you prepare to winter in AZ, here's some unsolicited advice- when you drive, stay in the far right hand lane, it's much safer...
I've seen too many out of state drivers attempt a left hand turn from an outer right hand lane during the months of October-April and cause untold snarls of traffic.

Welcome to the Grand Canyon State! You'll certainly enjoy our winter!!!!

Deacon John,


Thanks for the advice about staying in the right hand lane. My husband generally does that except to avoid an exit on the freeway. Appreciate the concern. God Bless.



Mary Jo..looking forward to winter in Tucson.

Dear Ghazar,

I guess the Greeks aren't too different from the Latins in respect to how they receive the Eucharist....

They line up respectfully, and some clasp their hands in prayer, and some don't. When they approach the chalice, the traditional practice, which is being revived slowly, is to do a 'metanoia' (aka: a touching the ground with one hand reverence), within a respectful and cautious distance, and the sign of the cross.

The priest/celebrant then says, "the servant of God...", at which time you insert your baptismal name, the priest repeats it, and gives you Holy Communion. This is standard.

The practices of 'metanoies', crossing one self, and clasped hands in prayer whilst on line, vary greatly.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Matthew,

Have you been naughty again??!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice,

No, the moderator did not consult me prior to his action and as such he over-reacted. He obviously misunderstood the purpose of commentary as he must have apparently perceived it as a more caustic remark than the non-deleted remarks of a fellow poster which is of no benefit to anybody "I'm always thinking in my head "STUPID LATINS!!! Don't they follow instructions?"

Yes they do, they are even smart about somethings.

Nevertheless I did find myself to be perplexed, misunderstood and aggravated by the moderators action my pride at work again you know... Should he find it necessary to delete any of this post as well he would still be misunderstanding what I have said. As you know quite well Alice that can happen especially here.

Here is the patristic explanation that is applicable to the situation.

"The man who endures accusations against himself with humility has arrived at perfection. He is marveled at by the holy angels, for there is no other virtue so great and so hard to achieve."
Saint Isaac of Syria

Here are 2 recent ROCOR links for you to check out Alice notice the Latin Bishop eating and talking with the 1st Hierarch of ROCOR and 6 or 7 Orthodox Bishops.

Last week we had a wonderful time in Chicago as we gathered to pray for our beloved Hierarch Archbishop Alypy. Archbishop Alypy has spent many years serving the Church with much concern for his flock. Ironically after spending years climbing up and down ladder's while painting icons he suffered a fall from climbing a small ladder to remove a small branch that had berries on it that ended up being tracked into the Church and he is now in a wheel chair. I once asked him about his misfortune and he mentioned in short that we are not wiser than God. By the way Alice he is no doubt the best iconographer alive in the world today a great master who even painted a Byzantine Catholic Church in union with Rome Iconostases. By the way he is very humble, I think that's why he paints so well. If anyone gets the Iconfile magazine his work will be featured within the next few months, I'm just finishing up the final text. Alice should I use spell chick?

Anyway I wanted to share a photo with everyone as the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Iakovas greeted Archbishop Alypy, the link is below. The man with his hands folded in the picture is Nicholas who I have just learned after knowing him for 35 years studied theology at Jordanville. The little kid to the right goes by the name of Constantine, he's about 9 years old, an altar boy who speaks and writes in three languages quite well from what I've been told. Constantine often stands by Archbishop Alypy while he stands during proskomedia running back and forth with Prosfora they work very well together.

http://www.roca.org/chicagoanddetroit/DCP02318.JPG

http://www.roca.org/chicagoanddetroit/DCP02293.JPG

It seems I have to be away for quite some time I sure hope, keep me in your prayers Alice as you and many here remain in mine.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

P.S. That's right Alice, 3 ROCOR Hierarchs right by and talking to a Latin Bishop, as matter of fact he was even very publicly thanked for attending by Archbiship Alypy. Now those ROCOR people are ok in my book even when words are misunderstood and even deleted. I hope they are ok in yours. Nice translation by the way.

Dear Matthew,

Can you share with us any links to Archbishop Alypy's iconography?

You've also made me hungry!

God Bless, Bill

Dear Matthew,

Those indeed, are wonderful pictures! Thank you for sharing them.

Yes, the photos please me, but what is most important, is that they please our God who wishes for us all to love one another, and to be brothers and sisters in His most Holy Name!

Have a most safe and productive trip Matthew, and may our Blessed Lady Theotokos be with you.

With love in Christ,
Alice

P.S. I agree with Bill, the food looks yummy...especially those stuffed tomatoes!

Dear Friends,

A fascinating thread, even for pretzel-lovers!

As I understand it, the "X" was among the earliest forms of the Christian Cross, based on the Name of our Lord in the first instance, rather than on the Cross of Calvary and it was the beginning of the "Christogram" or "IC XC."

During the times of the Roman persecutions, Christians would sometimes meet and then exchange symbolic signals to indicate their allegiance.

So one might meet someone one thought was a Christian and would draw a "/" on the wall.

If that person was a Christian, he or she would complete the sign with another slash to form the "X."

And I believe it was the 7th Ec. Council (?)that established that all depictions of the Cross of Christ, including those worn around the neck, must be signed with the Christogram to indicate that this was indeed the Cross of our Lord that was intended to be represented.

Some has said that the slanted footrest of the Orthodox Cross is an allusion to the X cross as is the folding of the arms.

The Old Believers have an incredibly beautiful tradition when they approach Holy Communion.

They not only fold their arms in the X Cross, but also shape the fingers of BOTH hands in the Old Believer tradition of making the Sign of the Cross, with two fingers extended!

(They also, I hear, try to sleep with the fingers of the right hand held in this way, in case they might need to cross themselves at night AND they hold their prayer ropes or lestovkas the same way, resting it on the middle finger of the left hand and counting not with the thumb, but with the index finger, these two fingers representing the two Natures of Christ)

Holding the arms in the X position really does lift one's mind to God!

As for pretzels, I also understand that bakers of pretzels working in the basement bakeries of Vienna heard the approach of the Turkish armies in the middle of the night and warned the authorities.

In thanks for their assistance, the government awarded them with a special coat of arms and some pretzel companies still place them on their product boxes - I have kept one as a souvenir.

I really hope Tim doesn't ask me for substantiation for anything I've written here . . . I wouldn't know where to begin!

Alex

Dear Matthew,

Yes, our UGCC parish of St Nicholas (the backdrop of the movie, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding") was painted by two Ukrainian ROCOR iconographers way back when.

They even did an icon of St Josaphat and Metropolitan Andrei Sheptytsky . . .

Is that even allowed by your jurisdiction?

No one does an icon of the above two as well as ROCOR!

Alex

Recently I was speaking with the parish priest in the Latin Church I attend. I noticed he had an Icon of the Blessed Theotokos in his office. I made reference to the Theotokos and his eyes lit up and said "it's been a long time since I've head a member of the parish refer to our Blessed Mother as the Theotokos.
He said that he especially likes the use of icons and how they are windows to God. He has many Byzantine icons in his possession.
He also stated that an iconographer does not paint an icon, but rather.. an iconographer writes an icon.
I was especially pleased to see a Latin priest embrace the East.
One thing he told me when I am attending a Eastern Liturgy... "Don't bring your watch"

Brad

Dear Brad,

In other words, you are even MORE intriguing as a Byzantine-in-training!

Alex

Brad,

Thanks for sharing that conversation. It's nice to hear about a Latin priest who not only appreciates our Churches, but actually knows something about the East.

As to the line above. We want to thank you for identifying a serious deficiency in the Forum's "Inculturation Course of Non-Easterners" (ICON) - namely, that, in your 4 months here, we hadn't taught you that . The curriculum committee will convene shortly to review and revise the relevant study materials to assure that doesn't happen again.

Many years,

Neil

Most iconographers will often say that they are painting an icon. The term writing an icon is a relatively new expression which has become very popular in the past 30 years or so. I have had this discussion before many times and in short it is not inappropriate to use either terms. It's a matter of language and translations.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin