www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Message from Orthodox Syria

I agree. US involvement (including aiding terrorists) in the region has destabilized it. The chaos and destruction that has ensued is nothing short of pure madness...whichever adjective one might prefer. In my opinion, I think it may be a good thing that the Wolfowitz doctrine (that is behind our disastrous foreign policy decisions) is being challenged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

Now your bias is showing. I don't demonize him, but I'm not going to canonize him either. I am actually glad someone is doing something for the Syrian Christians. But Putin is what he is, a Russian nationalist pushing Russian interests. The mistake is thinking that Russian interests and Orthodox interests are the same.

Indeed.


Who said anything about glorification?


Me too.


He is the president of Russia.


It has not been proven to me that his Orthodox faith does not factor into some of his decisions. I often find myself comparing his rhetoric and actions with the president of the U.S.

One of them is speaks against abortion, gay "marriage", euthanasia, and other immoral issues.

The other one is a champion of abortion and gay "marriage." He campaigns for the increased funding of Planned Parenthood...and has gay month at the White House.

One of them encourages the building of Orthodox Churches and Monasteries.

The other one is squashing religious freedom/speech....and forces churches and religious institutions to pay for contraception.

One of them is defending the Christians in Syria.

The other one has allowed weapons, ammunition, and vehicles to fall into the hands of ISIS....supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt...... and doesn't seem to care much about the plight of Christians.

I often find myself wishing we had a president more like Putin.....but that's just my bias showing.

I have never said I supported Obama or his failed foreign policy efforts so I am not sure what that has to do with anything. As to Putin, he can annex Crimea but is unable to shut down Russia's abortion industry? Seems to me the former is harder than the latter. As to religious freedom, not so much for Greek Catholics or non-MP Orthodox in Crimea and Russian controlled Ukraine.

Never said you did. I was making a comparison.


I believe he will do more to suppress this industry in Russia, than those politicians from countries who worship at the demonic altar of abortion.


Ha. As I have said many times. I'm not going tit for tat with you Fr. Deacon. I have read multitudes of articles of persecutions and travesties committed against the Ukrainian Orthodox MP....committed by the groups you have mentioned.

Let's not go there.....it does not lead to a good place.

Furthermore, this thread has once again deteriorated into a critical dissertation on Vladimir Putin. And I am also guilty for contributing to the derailment.

My thoughts and prayers will be with the Syrian Christians and others in the Middle East who are being persecuted and murdered by Islamic terrorists. The one thing that most of us agree with.....is that Russia is giving them a small ray of hope.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Alice,

There is, of course, no "black and white" in foreign policy on either side. I agree that the U.S. foreign policy has been a disaster.

As for supporting terrorists, yes, this is correct.

At the same time, the Russian government is likewise supporting terrorists and even exporting terrorism. Its alliance with Iran is a case in point.

The Russian government is also supporting terrorist groups in south-eastern Ukraine where thousands of Orthodox and EC's have been killed based on an equally reprehensible Russian foreign policy that states that territories where Russians live ought to belong to Russia.

This is the same foreign policy that guided Hitler in the years leading to WWII.

As for the statements of the Melkite Patriarch in Syria and others, we simply don't know what the real impact of Russian bombing is having on Christians. The proxy war between the U.S. and Russia that is going on there now may indeed have made the various Islamist groups scramble for cover - for now.

The point is simply that what the Patriarch said was both diplomatic and proper. He wanted to show that he is on the side of the government so that the Church is not seen as an enemy of the state. That is the correct thing to do.

Also, the article given by Recluse regarding Russian military hits on ISIS - unless this can be confirmed by sources other than "Russia Today" it is really quite worthless as RT is a pro-Russian government media arm.

It is true that American journalists worked for RT. But during the Maidan uprising in Ukraine when RT called the grandmothers and students opposing Yanukovych "nazis" and "fascists" two and more of those journalists resigned from RT having quickly come to the same conclusion about who it is a front for.

Finally, and I raise this simply because of the kerfuffle here over the Russian government invasion of Crimea and south-eastern Ukraine, the matter of the rights of Kyivan Patriarchate Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in those areas was juxtaposed with the tensions between the KP Orthodox/EC's and the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine proper.

The important difference is that the position of the KP Orthodox and EC's in Crimea is one that is influenced by the aggressor military power in control there for now.

In Ukraine proper, struggles over parishes etc. are local and these are followed by condemnations by the leadership of the KP and the UGCC, as well as by the government. (One recent example is that over a dozen UGCC priests have announced they will run for political office, in direct contravention of the UGCC Synod's rules that NO priest is to run for or hold political office - these priests will be severely disciplined if they do not obey their patriarch's direct order to withdraw from politics).

Another element of this tension is likewise missing here - that members of the canonical UOC-MP themselves are now protesting against their first Hierarch, especially after he made quite the shameful demonstration in the Ukrainian Parliament some months back by refusing to stand in honour of the soldiers, both living and reposed, being given medals in a special ceremony there.

So even Buddhists and others stood while the UOC-MP Primate sat alone with his two bishops!

I wonder what the reaction would be from the government in Moscow had the ROC patriarch sat through a similar ceremony?

Be that as it may, what the Hierarch did has also provoked widespread unrest among the CANONICAL flock as well. I doubt very much if RT would carry any reports of this as well.

This is all grist for the debating mill. We all have our biases, as we like to remind ourselves.

Alex

Indeed. And you are very outspoken about yours.

All of your accusations can be countered 180 degrees from the opposite perspective. I have seen countless articles about the Ukrainian Orthodox Church MP being persecuted and priests/laity being assaulted by the very groups that you claim to be victims. You can't even give legitimacy to the statements of the Melkite Patriarch.

I suppose this forum gives you an outlet to voice your frustrations. But your posts often cause great sadness in my heart.

Ha! And I often see more truth and factual reporting emanating from RT......than I do from CNN, MSNBC, OR FOX combined.

Let's not be naive here, sure RT reports "facts", it's the way that it's reported and the manner that leads to a certain view. For example, I do watch RT, it's on certain channels in my area - along with DW (German), KoreanNews, ChineseNews, etc. RT is not above rhetoric or propaganda.

All news networks have a propaganda angle, but some are worse than others, and RT is down there with Fox News as one of the worst. I find it amusing to see people guffaw at Faux News while swallowing stories from RT wholesale.

It is true that all networks have their slant.

But it is interesting that you are a self proclaimed socialist...and you feel that Fox News is inundated with propaganda. It is usually the liberal progressive Marxists who refer to it as "Faux News."

Dear Recluse,

OK, that is part of the debating process and it shouldn't bring sadness but a certain . . . spring to one's step!

I didn't affirm that what the Melkite Patriarch said was anything other than, in the first instance, what he should have said.

Let's remember that there is no governing authority in Syria without blood on its hands - especially not Assad.

But it isn't the Christians' job to condemn this or that side in general. It IS their job to see how much they can protect themselves from further persecution and that is what the Melkite Patriarch did. He isn't the first hierarch/church authority to do that.

As for "victimhood" in Ukraine, the EC's and autocephalous Orthodox movement there have suffered martyrdom to the nth degree.

Again, just drawing attention to the distinction between what is government-sponsored discrimination, as in Crimea, and what are local tensions involving the MP with: KP, UGCC AND members of the UOC-MP itself over the shameful way their First Hierarch behaved. Even the MP Metropolitan Aleksandr Drabenko gave an interview to the media in which he explained the Primate's strong pro-Russian sympathies. That is what is upsetting even his own canonical flock.

We can go back and forth over who is the greater victim. But then we would have to go back in time a bit, and we really don't want to do that do we?).

I'm simply giving a counter-argument to what you said on behalf of my Church which I certainly have a right to do.

Feel free to respond, but, as I agreed, I will leave it at that with a spiritual bow to you asking your forgiveness.

Alex

And, Brother Recluse, it matters not which forum I'm on.

I speak my mind, sometimes undiplomatically, all the time!

But I like the fact that you are an anti-socialist! We now share an "anti-something" characteristic!

Alex

Dear Swan,

Well, I will say that it is high near impossible to pigeon-hole you in any way, shape or form!

That is a gift sir! I wouldn't want you as an enemy!

Alex

OK, guys, I think we've done all this to death.

Let's call a truce and try not to get under each other's skin too much from now on.

I know I'm largely to blame for this.

At the end of the day, Mr. Putin doesn't care if I like him or not.

I care whether I've offended Recluse or Swan or any of you.

Dosvidanniya!

Alex