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This FB link was sent to me by someone who was , putting it mildly , intrigued

Iconostasis in an RC Church ? [facebook.com]

With apologies I'm no good at getting photos on Byzcath frown

I was so fascinated by this and so was my informant that we started to look round the Site

Yes there is an explanation for their Icon Screen - in a Video on the Site

Br Robert Lentz explains [allsaintsheights.com]

I wonder what you all think about it.


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I've read about and discussed this thing and Br. Robert overy at CAF.. almost unanimously everyone agreed that at best his stuff is problematic, at worst, down right nausesting and prohomosexual.. frankly I'm surprised Cardinal DiNardo hasn't censured him

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I've read about and discussed this thing and Br. Robert overy at CAF.. almost unanimously everyone agreed that at best his stuff is problematic, at worst, down right nausesting and prohomosexual.. frankly I'm surprised Cardinal DiNardo hasn't censured him

I find that a rather unkind thing to say about a Franciscan friar who, in his discourse concerning his work, made a very sincere and plausible attempt to justify his effort to modify and adapt an ancient Byzantine form to modern, western styles of worship and architecture. Is his work really "stuff", and is it really "nauseating and prohomosexual"? Please. Who is CAF anyway?

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Here is a link to some of his work

Trinity Store [trinitystores.com]

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Ouch! Some of that stuff is truly horrifying.

An "Icon" of Harvey Milk?!?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Recluse
Ouch! Some of that stuff is truly horrifying.

An "Icon" of Harvey Milk?!?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

That's insightful. The disappearing volume of posts on this forum says it all. How does one unregister? Or, do you just stop posting?

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Harvey Milk, if you don't know, was very active in promoting gay rights. Sadly, he was assassinated. However, he was not in any way a Catholic saint, in fact he was Jewish. Why would my objection to this and other heretical and politically based pseudo "icon" propoganda be objectionable to you?

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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Here is a link to some of his work

I also see that he depicts such figures as Rumi (the Sufi mystic) and the multi-gendered We-wha of Zuni.

Very disturbing.

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I am not amused !!!!!!

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his effort to modify and adapt an ancient Byzantine form to modern, western styles of worship and architecture

Utroque:

Christ is in our midst!!

My understanding of what iconography is about is that it is not, strictly speaking, about the art. It is a "window onto eternity" meant to draw one into the presence of the one depicted and into communion with Christ and those who are already in the Kingdom.

The depictions of politically correct figures like Harvey Milk are as much an affront as some icon-like images posted several years ago that had New Age additions to the images, including one that had a snake surrounding it.

These Westernized images are not real icons. They mimic icons, even when that is not the intention.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Harvey Milk, if you don't know, was very active in promoting gay rights. Sadly, he was assassinated. However, he was not in any way a Catholic saint, in fact he was Jewish. Why would my objection to this and other heretical and politically based pseudo "icon" propoganda be objectionable to you?

Because the man was a victim of the very bigotry you seem to espouse. As to his Jewishness, might you recall that Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Holy Mother and Apostles, including St. Paul were Jews. Some of them may even have been homosexual. In any case, I would stand up for their rights as I would any individual of good will. Amen. Amen!

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Originally Posted by Utroque
Because the man was a victim of the very bigotry you seem to espouse.
what bigotry is that? The one that discriminates that iconography is limited to those of Christian faith and martyrs for that faith, perhaps even only of the Catholic/Orthodox/Assyrian persuasion?

Besides this, wasn't Dan White's reason for killing the Mayor and Supervisor because he thought his resignation wouldn't be rescinded as he wanted? How is that bigotry related? Sure Harvey Milk was harassed for supporting gay rights, many rights that should be had by any citizen. However, this spin is more propaganda not reality.

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As to his Jewishness, might you recall that Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Holy Mother and Apostles, including St. Paul were Jews.
You are on very thin ice with this. Jewish groups object vehemently when Mormons claim Jews as their own and 'baptize' them post-death; do you think this phony 'gesture' would be appreciated? Would Martin Luther King Jr. really want to be venerated in an icon?

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Some of them may even have been homosexual.
Ok, so you have a preconceived agenda.

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In any case, I would stand up for their rights as I would any individual of good will. Amen. Amen!
What right is that? The "right" to bastardize someone else's Traditions for their own propaganda and rhetorical purposes? What's the practical difference between these "icons" and the one's of Stalin and Lenin created by Marxists in the Moscow Museum - other than one supports your political persuasion?

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Utroque

Since in both East and West a halo is regarded as the indication that a person has been declared a saint are you happy with some of the depictions on the Site at TrinityStores ?

How about the depiction in the centre of the top row on page 7.

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a Franciscan friar who, in his discourse concerning his work, made a very sincere and plausible attempt to justify his effort to modify and adapt an ancient Byzantine form to modern, western styles of worship and architecture

Utroque:

Christ is in our midst!!

Forgive me for revisiting your quote. Iconography is part of the Byzantine tradition of worship and theology. The theology behind icons relates to the fact that those depicted are glorified as saints by one of the Orthodox Churches. As such, to depict someone who has not been glorifed turns the process around. It is no longer God who lets us know who has served Him and received the reward of his works, but we who pass judgment on a person using the criteria of the world and not those of the Faith. So we are glorifying an earthly kingdom of our own making and not depicting the Kingdom which is to come and already is in our midst.

Beyond that, there are strict rules for iconography that call for the depictions being done in an "other-worldly" fashion. As such, it is not about "adapting" this tradition but accepting it for what it is--a part of the litrugical and faith tradition of the Christian East which expresses its experience of the Tradition of the Apostles, Fathers, and Saints.

Bob

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Originally Posted by theophan
Quote
a Franciscan friar who, in his discourse concerning his work, made a very sincere and plausible attempt to justify his effort to modify and adapt an ancient Byzantine form to modern, western styles of worship and architecture

Utroque:

Christ is in our midst!!

Forgive me for revisiting your quote. Iconography is part of the Byzantine tradition of worship and theology. The theology behind icons relates to the fact that those depicted are glorified as saints by one of the Orthodox Churches. As such, to depict someone who has not been glorifed turns the process around. It is no longer God who lets us know who has served Him and received the reward of his works, but we who pass judgment on a person using the criteria of the world and not those of the Faith. So we are glorifying an earthly kingdom of our own making and not depicting the Kingdom which is to come and already is in our midst.

Beyond that, there are strict rules for iconography that call for the depictions being done in an "other-worldly" fashion. As such, it is not about "adapting" this tradition but accepting it for what it is--a part of the litrugical and faith tradition of the Christian East which expresses its experience of the Tradition of the Apostles, Fathers, and Saints.

Bob

He is and shall be!

My quote was not an attempt to justify Friar Robert's work, but rather to understand his justification for his work in the face of what I saw was a rather crass and unkind attempt to condemn it. I am well aware of the ancient and hallowed Traditions of the eastern Church regarding icons and reverence them continually in my midst as one grounded in that Tradition. It is rather obvious that Brother Lentz's iconography is unconventional, but to heap scorn on it because it does not follow standard, orthodox criteria, or because he "iconographizes" (if I might use the expression) people that some find objectionable, I find unchristian to the core.

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