The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
jsunseri, Andrew_the_Ascetic, Giovanni1, SeekingTruth, friendly_pilgrim
5,863 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (1 invisible), 84 guests, and 19 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,191
Posts415,118
Members5,863
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
O
OpusRay Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Hello all!

I am brand new to the site and I'm very glad I found this resource. I have a question about Eastern Christianity, though not Byzantine, in regards to the public prayer of the West Syriac churches, i.e. Syriac Catholic and Syriac Orthodox. I understand that the Syro-Malankara Church and the Maronite Church (though not as obvious) are part of the same liturgical family.

1. Are the liturgies of the Syriac Catholics and the Syriac Orthodox identical?
2. Are the liturgies of the Syro-Malankara Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church identical (with the difference perhaps of Indian inculturation in the Syro-Malankara liturgy and the use of Malayalam)?
3. In regards to the Divine Office (Sh'himo), is the Office for the clergy and the laity identical? Or is the version for the laity abbreviated?
4. In regards to liturgical music for either the Divine Liturgy or the Divine Office, I understand that the foremost source is the Beth Gazo. Are its melodies standard? Or does every parish or region or country have its own melodies ?

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,897
Likes: 25
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,897
Likes: 25
Christ is in our midst!!

Welcome to the forum.

That said, there are some of our members who should be able to answer your questions.

Bob
Moderator

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
O
OpusRay Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Thanks for the welcome, Bob!

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 4
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by OpusRay
1. Are the liturgies of the Syriac Catholics and the Syriac Orthodox identical?
Unfortunately, no. The Syriac Catholic liturgy is heavily latinized. A significant difference is that the Syriac Catholic liturgy is celebrated facing the people and no curtains are used. The liturgy is also shortened.
Also, there is the use of western miters by Syriac Catholic bishops.


Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 3
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by OpusRay
1. Are the liturgies of the Syriac Catholics and the Syriac Orthodox identical?
Welcome to the Forum! On paper yes, in praxis no.
Quote
2. Are the liturgies of the Syro-Malankara Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church identical (with the difference perhaps of Indian inculturation in the Syro-Malankara liturgy and the use of Malayalam)?
Yes. The differences are slightly in translation, and the Thubden (Dyptichs) commemorate the Pope. The Malankara Syriac Catholic ones are usually more abbreviated (meaning, closer to the oldest forms). The Orthodox Churches added some of their saints to their Thubden, as well as use the extended Thubdens regularly.
Quote
3. In regards to the Divine Office (Sh'himo), is the Office for the clergy and the laity identical? Or is the version for the laity abbreviated?
There are no lay versions, they use the same as priests, if possible, minus incense. However, there are no official "complete" Sh'himo. They vary by region. Mardin, TurAbdin, Damascus, Pampakuda (monastery), and some Bishop's editions have slight variations. The extended Divine Office can only be used in a monastery due to it's length - the rest are all abbreviated to some extent.
Quote
4. In regards to liturgical music for either the Divine Liturgy or the Divine Office, I understand that the foremost source is the Beth Gazo. Are its melodies standard? Or does every parish or region or country have its own melodies ?
The Beth Gazo is a standard, there are regional differences. Indian versions also vary regionally.

The Syriac Catholic Liturgy's norm is to be facing East, but facing the people is certainly popular - even the Patriarch and bishops do it. It's much, much rarer among Syriac Orthodox - although not unheard of.
[Linked Image]

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
O
OpusRay Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Michael_Thoma, thanks very much for the wealth of information. I started reading up on the Syriac churches after all the stories of the plight of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East. It was only then that I became keenly aware of the Church in that region of the world that was neither Latin or Byzantine. As Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote in his classic "The Orthodox Church," "It is interesting to note how cultural and ecclesiastical divisions tend to coincide. Christianity, while universal in its mission, has been associated in practice with three cultures: Semitic, Greek, and Latin" (page 4).

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 3
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,658
Likes: 3
You should attend a Syriac Liturgy.

The Syriac Catholic Eparch of Our Lady of Deliverance in based in NJ.

The St. Mary, Queen of Peace Malankara Syrian Eparchy is based in Elmont, Long Island.

There are also numerous Syriac and Malankara Orthodox parishes, both have Cathedrals in NY.

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 75
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 75
OpusRay, if I may recommend some reading, Sebastian Brock (if you're reading about Syriac, I'm sure you've encountered him) has written countless articles and books on the Syriac tradition and on St. Ephrem in particular. If you have not read them, his The Luminous Eye: The Spiritual World Vision of Saint Ephrem the Syrian [amazon.com] and St. Ephrem the Syrian: Hymns On Paradise [amazon.com] are well worth the read.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
O
OpusRay Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Michael_Thoma, thanks very much for the recommendation. I plan on attending a Syriac liturgy, either Catholic or Orthodox, soon.

MalpanaGiwargis, thanks! I've come across Prof. Brock's name multiple times in my reading so far. I just ordered "The Luminous Eye" and looking forward to reading it soon.

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569
Likes: 2
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569
Likes: 2
There is the indispensable West Syrian Liturgical Theology by Fr. Dr. Baby Varghese. I understand he is at work on an East Syrian Liturgical Theology.

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
O
OpusRay Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 15
My brother, Msgr. Russo! I'm very happy to come across you here as well! I've seen Father Varghese's book referenced in a few places, but I can't seem to find a copy for purchase anywhere. I think I'll have to make a trip to the New York Public Library to look at it. I hope to see you again at Divine Liturgy at the parish one of these Sundays! --Father Raymond

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 4
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,473
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma

Thank you for posting the photo from L'église Saint-Éphrem-le-Syriaque in Paris. With its screen and curtain and the fact that the liturgy is celebrated ad orientem, this is the closest I've seen to the interior of a Syriac Catholic church looking almost like a Syriac Orthodox church.

[Linked Image]




Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569
Likes: 2
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 569
Likes: 2
Retired as of August 1. I've returned to my home eparchy (Newton) and parish (Church of the Virgin Mary). When you come to NYC let's get together!

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,698
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,698
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by OpusRay
3. In regards to the Divine Office (Sh'himo), is the Office for the clergy and the laity identical? Or is the version for the laity abbreviated?
There are no lay versions, they use the same as priests, if possible, minus incense. However, there are no official "complete" Sh'himo. They vary by region. Mardin, TurAbdin, Damascus, Pampakuda (monastery), and some Bishop's editions have slight variations.

Sh'himo or Fanqitho?

Quote
The extended Divine Office can only be used in a monastery due to it's length - the rest are all abbreviated to some extent.

What does "extended" mean here?


Moderated by  Administrator, Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2022 (Forum 1998-2022). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5