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Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
Since leap years exist in both the Gregorian and Meletian calendars, by your logic they are just as inaccurate.
Hardly. The Gregorian and Meletian leap year algorithm is accurate, the Julian is not. The three calendars use three different leap year methods; that's why they are three different calendars.

Based on the tenor of your posts in this thread, I must conclude that you do not have sufficient skills on this issue to be discussing it.

ajk #417266 07/22/17 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ajk
Based on the tenor of your posts in this thread, I must conclude that you do not have sufficient skills on this issue to be discussing it.

It is the same thing I used to believe as an Old Calendar Zealot.

Calendars are just that...calendars. Christ's Church has the authority to change the liturgical calendar if it sees fit to do so. The local Orthodox Churches who implemented the calendar reform did a pretty poor job of doing it and sadly it caused division and in some places, it lead to violence.

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The Paschalion established at Nicea as received by the Orthodox Catholic Church and transmitted by her unto our day is the Paschalion Nicea obliges all Christians who wish unity with the Church to observe. It anathemizes those who don't or would celebrate Pascha on another day. For Orthodox Christians this is sacrosanct. Those bodies which are not in Communion with our Church are encouraged to celebrate Pascha with us as a sign that there is good faith and actual intent to reestablish unity. Such an act would help further dialogue.

And since the Catholic Church continues to celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon (14 Nisan) after the vernal equinox it is fully in compliance with Nicea. It just happens to do so on the scientifically more accurate Gregorian (named after a Pope of Rome) calendar. And yet because there seems to be an issue the Church allows some of the Eastern Catholic Churches to use the Old Calendar if they wish. There are more important things to worry about than what calendar one uses.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/22/17 04:49 AM.
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Since the moderators have pointed out to me that it is inappropriate to answer personal attacks against myself which contain such flourishes as "you lack the necessary skills to discuss this topic" and "Old Calendarist zealot," I am afraid that open dialogue on this topic which would illuminate and perhaps clarify the errors of Calendar reform zeal is not possible. There seems to only be one point of view here which may be voiced. I will leave it at that.

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I remind all posters that personal attacks are never appropriate. Please make sure that your posts stick to the topic under discussion and do not descend to personal attack. We are Christians, and should post with charity at all times.

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It is the same thing I used to believe as an Old Calendar Zealot.


I was referring to myself an OId Calendar Zealot, which at one time I was. Some of the things you were saying reminded me of my own thinking at one time. Sorry if that offended you.

I think the Church of Christ can change its liturgical calendar if she wishes so. She has that authority.


Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/25/17 05:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
I am afraid that open dialogue on this topic which would illuminate and perhaps clarify the errors of Calendar reform zeal is not possible.
There has been a whole lot of dialogue on this topic, very detailed and at times excruciating, over the course of at least 10 years. Just the content of this thread in its entirety is an example of such dialogue. But you have to read it.

Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
... inappropriate to answer personal attacks against myself which contain such flourishes as "you lack the necessary skills to discuss this topic" and "Old Calendarist zealot,"
The words in quotes are close to what I've written but are not properly quotes of what I wrote and, consequently, do not adequately reflect my position.

Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
Your last comments were addressed, rebutted and set aside.
My comments did not reject your proposal, so why set them aside?

Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
While the supposed 54 years of adjustment to correct the calendar seems difficult for some, it is a natural transition which avoids schism ... by preserving the Calendar adopted at Nicea. It preserves the liturgical Communion of the churches with the historical Church (the Catholic reality of the Church Militant) and avoids the pitfalls of being condemned for introducing schismatic innovations. It also allows local churches an irenic time of transition which will prevent unnecessary scandals and divisions. Those factors all in themselves warrant the gradual transition as being a better solution than what has been done with its ridiculous time travel and schismatic methodology.
If the old calendar folks accept this gradual fix over ~ 52 years, I'm all for it. There was no "Calendar adopted at Nicea" but the proposal to gradually correct the Julian calendar to bring it in line with what is attributed to Nicea is on the mark. One then continues to correct the Julian Paschalion as needed to kept the computus stabilized to what is accepted by all as the proper determination of Pascha. As stated:

Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
Leap years can be added or subtracted to suit the needs of the time (or astronomical calculation)
That (and the moon phases) fixes the defective Julian Paschalion. The result then after the ~ 52 years is basically the Gregorian or Meletian calendar and paschalion or the methodology proposed at Aleppo.

So the old calendar adherents can believe that they've preserved their Julian Paschalion against the perpetrators of schism etc., but they will have managed to end up at basically the same place and accepting the same necessary adjustments, but in an ad hoc fashion, that were accomplished ~400 years ago by Pope Gregory's reform.

So what is one to conclude?: The "schismatic innovation" is acceptable as long as it's done over a sufficiently long period of time and it's still called the Julian calendar.

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The fact you write this in an echo chamber where your erroneous, Calendar Reform propaganda goes unchallenged just emphasizes that your views cannot stand scrutiny.

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I think I missed the part where the liturgical calendar became a dogma of the faith. Seriously, if the Church of Christ can't reform its own liturgical calendar what authority does she have then? The liturgical calendar serves the Church and not the other way around.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/27/17 02:50 AM.
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I think if I am allowed to answer your Calendar Reform propaganda freely your responses won't be as casual.

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Originally Posted by RussoRuthenianOGC
preserving the Calendar adopted at Nicea.
There was not a single "calendar adopted at NIcea." There was a methodology. If it had been properly preserved, the lunar tables would agree with the visible moon--which they do not do.
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I have no bone to pick in the calendar debate except to say that it is a scandal that Christians cannot agree on a common date for Pascha. Please, please hierarchs, forget the polemics. Rome pontificates on so many things like the environment amd walls etc. Why can't Pope FRANCIS I simply pronounce that on such and such a date the Latin Church will switch to the Orthododox computation of Pascha. The failure to do so can't be for a theological reason since the Roman Catholics in Egypt and Greece already follow the Orthodox computation.



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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
I have no bone to pick in the calendar debate ... Please, please hierarchs, forget the polemics. .. simply pronounce that on such and such a date the Latin Church will switch to the Orthododox computation of Pascha.
All is correct if everyone just accepts the Julian computation that is wrong more often than right and getting worse. The polemics I hear are from the Old Calendar zealots, and those who believe them, who can only repeat this mantra instead of just looking up in the sky. If they even bother to look they refuse to see.

Why use a methodology, the Julian computus, that -- demonstrably -- now is NOT in accord with the accepted Nicaea standard?

As an analogy, I'm reminded of an account I read as a kid, in a book about mathematics, about a state legislator who introduced a bill to make pi (ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter) be exactly 3 rather than the irrational (meaning it can't be expressed as a ratio of whole numbers) number 3.14159.... The author remarked that would have turned all their circles into hexagons. Those using the Gregorian computus circular wheels are, as it were, here invited to use the Julian's hexagonal wheels as the desired solution. While they seem ok with the bumpy ride on six-sided tires, I'll decline the invitation in favor of mine that are round.

ajk #417372 09/02/17 03:21 AM
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Again, I have no bone to pick other than that ths unity of Christ's Church should be before all else. If the "correctness" of the Roman calculation is so important than why: 1) Does the roman computation allow Pascha before the eight days of the Jewish Passover iscomplete - one of the conciliar requiremens, and 2) Why then allow the Latin dioceses in Greece and Egypt, etc. follow the Orthodox computation? In additon, Lastly, may I point out that there are Eastern Catholics who follow the complete Julian calendar and others, like the Romanian Greek-Catholics who follow the revised Julian.
Sitting high on a throne of mathematical "correctness" doesn't answer the scandal that this causes, especially in the Midde East and Africa..

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Originally Posted by Protopappas76
why...Does the roman computation allow Pascha before the eight days of the Jewish Passover iscomplete - one of the conciliar requiremens
There is no such requirement. The computus, whether Julian or Gregorian, is self-consistent and contains no built-in dependence on the Rabbinic Jewish calendar. Indeed, it is part of the Nicene decision that the computus must not depend in any way on Jewish computations.

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Eusebius says otherwise in his history of the Church and he was a contemporary to the decision. ... He isn't alone.

This topic is one sided because there is only one position allowed to be heard here. That is unfortunate. So I would discourage people who disagree with the calendar reform crowd from engaging this discussion. Only echos are allowed here.

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