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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
First of all, I think it would help if our EC Churches controlled the selection of their bishops and not Rome . . . Would our bishops allow such a thing? Although I understand that the old Celtic monks could be married and the surname "MacNab" means "Son of the Abbot." I guess "Abba" really DOES have several meanings ... Joe
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Originally posted by Mikey Stilts: Some rules can only have been invented by men, probably celibate men who were upset that they don't get any so they have to place similar burdens on others. 
I'm thinking of the use of Blessed Augustine by pro-mandatory celibacy folks. Hi Mikey, I still am reminded that Jesus blessed a marriage at Cana. The sickness of religion has a way to rid us of that fact. Joe
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Dear Cantor Joseph, Well, I guess our bishops would agree to it if Rome allows it. The silver lining in the cloud would be that if Rome didn't allow it, then our bishops could send out a missive saying that they look forward to the day when Rome WILL allow it and they sincerely HOPE that Rome will allow it sometime soon. But they'll only say that if Rome allows them to hope that way . . . Otherwise, the only other avenue left open for them is to defer it to Rome for Rome's consideration. That is if Rome will allow them to defer it to it. Otherwise, they might want to explore the possibility of approaching Rome on this matter again, with Rome's approval, the next time Rome appoints a new bishop to join their ranks . . . The problem with that is that it all depends on Rome's decision on the matter. And they won't ask for a time-line on that, unless Rome says they can . . . This all reminds me of when the old soviet Ukrainian president fell on the steps of the Presidium and hurt his backbone. His assistant rushed to his physician and told him to come in a hurry, "for your patient, Comrade President, has hurt his back-bone." "That's impossible," said the doctor. "I've know the Comrade for years - I know he has no backbone . . ." And is "come to abba" the same as "come to daddy?" Alex
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Dear Cantor Joseph,
And even more to the point, our Lord didn't deny the wedding guests some really excellent libation!!
He loved life and wants us to do the same.
After all, He is the Creator of all!
Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Adam,
There is one question that newly-ordained married priests keep asking me that I thought you would have the answer to . . .
The priest's "Molitvoslov" states that a married priest cannot sleep EVEN IN THE SAME ROOM with his Presbytera the night before he is to serve the Divine Liturgy.
Now what about those who have daily Divine Liturgies?
Well that 'rule' is like many others still on the books. It's just that--still on the books, but otherwise ignored in real life from what I have seen and heard. I would have to double check, but I think this was one of the things set for formal updating back in the 1970s when Orthodoxy was getting ready for its "Great and Holy Synod" which of course has yet to happen... I'm not in favour of abandoning it entirely. I think it makes sense to observe some degree of continence before, at the very least, Sunday liturgy as well as during the fasting periods. If I, a lowly minor cleric and archsinner, can manage that then surely a priest, with all the grace of his office, can do something similar. That being said, it has to be tempered with reason or economia, all under the wise guidance of a skilled spiritual father. Adam, subdeacon
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Dear Subdeacon Adam, Well, if you are going to check on whether priests actually follow that rule - please do so discreetly and only after you are sure you can observe things while being well-hidden and undetected . . .  More power to you! Alex
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Cantor Joseph,
And even more to the point, our Lord didn't deny the wedding guests some really excellent libation!!
He loved life and wants us to do the same.
After all, He is the Creator of all!
Alex I still think the Son of Man Christology has gone totally ignored. Didn't he come eating and drinking? Joe
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Well, I guess our bishops would agree to it if Rome allows it.
The silver lining in the cloud would be that if Rome didn't allow it, then our bishops could send out a missive saying that they look forward to the day when Rome WILL allow it and they sincerely HOPE that Rome will allow it sometime soon.
But they'll only say that if Rome allows them to hope that way . . .
Otherwise, the only other avenue left open for them is to defer it to Rome for Rome's consideration.
That is if Rome will allow them to defer it to it.
Otherwise, they might want to explore the possibility of approaching Rome on this matter again, with Rome's approval, the next time Rome appoints a new bishop to join their ranks . . .
The problem with that is that it all depends on Rome's decision on the matter.
And they won't ask for a time-line on that, unless Rome says they can . . .
Alex, They can also do what the Romanian Byzantine bishop did here in Canton, Ohio. Simply ordain them and pull their bluff. The boogey-man only exists if scared children allow it to exist. Joe
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic: Dear Subdeacon Adam,
Well, if you are going to check on whether priests actually follow that rule - please do so discreetly and only after you are sure you can observe things while being well-hidden and undetected . . .
More power to you!
Alex Alex, Very droll!  Upon re-reading what I wrote I see how it could be interpreted to suggest I have voyeuristic tendencies, which is not the case. I meant of course that I have heard a few conversations along these lines in which rigid application of this rule is disavowed.
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Dear Adam, O.K., you've found me out . . . And I don't always talk like a bishop, sorry . . . Alex
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Originally posted by J Thur: Originally posted by Adam DeVille:
[b] That Roman Cholij book is a disaster.
None dare call it leadership.
Got b***s? [/b]Mr. Thur, This is a Christian Forum. If you need to use stars to mask offensive words then you should not post them at all. Surely you can make your points without resorting to such language? Admin
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Originally posted by Administrator:
If you need to use stars to mask offensive words then you should not post them at all.
Surely you can make your points without resorting to such language?
Admin Sorry. Feel free to edit/delete. No sense in stating common knowledge. I did refrain from making use of pejoratives. Joe
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Frank, I'm going to hire you as my theological advisor. You must be well versed in the Documents of Vatican II. Originally posted by FrankB:
...Conversely, no Pope that I know of has ever refuted the Eastern Christian Church's tradition of the married priesthood. To me, that says a lot...
...And because of the God ordained uniqueness of the Petrine Office, I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Eastern and Latin Catholic Churches are maintaining a separate tradition on this issue (and as it relates to other issues as well). I see these practices (the celibate priesthood and the married priesthood) as being special gifts/graces which God has distributed as He sees fit to the Churches that He desires should have them...
Nothing more - nothing less...
What bothers me greatly is when Catholics (Eastern or Roman) decides that they know better than the Holy Pontiff himself on how to guide the Church. This type of ill perceived mindset has lent itself to causing a near schism of the Roman Catholic Church in America as it relates to the Catholic Church worldwide (but I believe that in the end, God would never allow that to happen). And it is equally troubling when I find Eastern Catholics who also think that they have now themselves become the Petrine Office and know what is better/right/wrong for the Catholic Church worldwide.
And to those infractions against the faith, I will have no part.
Your coment, "What bothers me greatly is when Catholics (Eastern or Roman) decides that they know better than the Holy Pontiff himself on how to guide the Church," reminds me of what a Protestant preacher said at a Catholic Charismatic conference: "Protestants are afraid of the Pope, yet we have thousands of them!" Not to be outdone, we Catholics have tens of thousands of "Popes." I'm a one Pope man.  Have a happy Pascha season! Paul PS: I love my three cats for practical reasons. They keep my house totally free of mice. Nice kitties
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Dear Frank and Paul,
This is all very heartening!
However, the Pope has spoken in the past as if celibacy is part of the character of the Priesthood, and so has Pope Paul VI and others.
And when local RC bishops, such as in North America, establish a "celibate only" rule, Rome doesn't rush in to change it or overrule them.
It would be nice if the Latins left the Easterners alone in this regard.
But when has that happened in practical terms?
Everything we have asserted in terms of our rights and our rites comes as a result of telling Rome off by ignoring what it says and going ahead and doing what our tradition says we should do.
And we'll continue to do that.
Alex
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Dear Alex,
I recall that the Pope said that celibacy was not an intrinsic characteristic of the priesthood.
Other wise, how could there be married priests in the Eastern Churches and married priests among converts in the Latin Church?
If I'm wrong about the Pope's theology on the priesthood please correct me.
Paul
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