www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Serious Question- Easter Churches growing?

Hello everyone,

I am a Western Catholic by birth, but I greatly respect and have attended many Byzantine (Ruthenian) liturgies and I've noticed around Pittsburgh, PA that it seems like there's a been a decline in numbers over the years. Is anyone else noticing this too? Cleveland?

I'm curious to know where the light of the East is spreading at?

There's a decline in population and Mass / Liturgy attendance across the entire country. My Byzantine parish is usually full every Sunday, but I'd say 20% of the population is revolving door visitors who stay anywhere from a few weeks to a few months, then move on. The local TLM parish is in the same boat. I read their bulletin every week and they publish attendance numbers, but they've stagnated since covid.

The thing with the more ancient liturgies is that they're shiny and new for a lot of people at first, and they dive into the traditionals and liturgical calendar with a lot of zeal, but eventually the lustre wears off, the enthusiasm wanes, they get bored and go back to their normal, jurisdictional novus ordo parish. Because they realize as long as they have to go to a boring liturgy every Sunday, it's easier to go to the one that's 5 minutes away and lasts 45 minutes, rather than drive an hour to the ones that last twice as long.

The overall trajectory of the Church in the West just doesn't look very promising, whether it's novus ordo TLM, or Byzantine. The fact is that the older populations who not only go to church but provide the majority of donations and funding are dying off, and the younger generations not only aren't going, but they either don't donate or don't have enough to donate. It's just the reality of the situation.

Holy Orthodoxy seems to be growing steadily in the United States. There's some silver lining there. The two Orthodox parishes I've checked out have had explosive growth in the last 1-2 years.

Christ is in our midst!!

EasternLight:

Welcome to the forum. We hope your time with us is spiritually beneficial. The decline in the Ruthenian Catholic Church seems to be tied to the "revised Divine Liturgy" that was the topic of much discussion on this board years ago.

Bob
Moderator

I've seen the opposite where I live. One of the four Orthodox parishes nearby closed within the last decade. A Greek, a Serbian and an OCA parish remain. The first two are the stereotypical ethnic enclaves that are dwindling in population as the younger members of the core ethnic base don't stick around while the older members pass on. The OCA parish seems to be doing ok, not growing or shrinking.

Orthodox parishes are usually pretty small, so "explosive growth" is relative.

Wasn't that almost 20 years ago now? The entire Catholic Church began near exponential decline beginning in the early 2000s with the revelation of the abuse scandals parallel with the rise of the internet. New members joining Byzantine Catholic parishes today don't even know about the revised DL. A lot of it was probably due to natural attrition as the old members died off.

I think the Byzantine Catholic Churches become a stepping stone into Orthodoxy for many. The beauty of the Eastern life draws them from their Western paradigm and dazzles them, giving them a taste of a fullness they never knew existed. Then when they spend enough time at the Byzantine Church and start seeing where it is lacking compared to the Orthodox parish down the street they grow uncomfortable with the latinizations and incomplete nature to these communities. This is certainly part of why I struggle with remaining Byzantine Catholic. Having tasted the fullness of Orthodoxy it is very difficult to settle for less.

Christ is in our midst!!

LionHippo44,

The same is happening with Orthodox parishes in my area of Central PA. Two of the three in town have either closed or virtually closed. The Greek parish definitely closed; the Russian parish is without a priest and only scarce, occasional services.

The Latin Catholic parishes are also not setting the world on fire. My parish sees very few children attending and parents aren't bringing them except to "get their sacraments." This last is a puzzle to me. Are sacramental receptions like merit badges to be obtained and then ignored?

One can certainly receive the fullness of the East in a Byzantine Catholic parish. Plus, you also have access to the riches of the West, being part of the Latin Church ("Western Orthodoxy" isn't a formidable entity to take seriously). Will you have to contend with some minor latinizations and adaptations? Well, maybe, but at least they're part of an authentic tradition. The typical "booming" Orthodox parish is heavily ex-Evangelical, included the priests. It's impossible to develop any type of genuine Orthodox "phronema" when half the parish was Protestant five minutes ago. But if you want to trade the fullness of the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy (hasn't budged from Eastern Europe for 1000 years, spare us the persecution nonsense - maybe Orthodoxy just wasn't strong enough to withstand it?) no one is going to stop you.

Yes, theophan. The trend overall is that organized religion is dying. Any parish, whether Orthodox or Catholic, that was founded by immigrants of one ethnicity are dying off. The younger folks moved on. They either moved away from home or just aren't interested in religion. The types of urban neighborhoods with massive concentrations of European-Americans from one country are gone, they're just not a part of the fabric of America anymore. For every one of us who thinks the faith is beautiful and rich, ten people don't care. In this material world, the teachings and core tenets of the faith simply come across as very fanciful and unbelievable to many. To your comment about sacraments as merit badges, yes I think you're correct - they're just seen as a rite of passage, a custom, a chance to have a party. Nobody really takes them seriously, because there don't appear to be any ramifications for not going to church or following the faith. People have found community elsewhere, and don't see the need to attend a ritual every Sunday to connect with others, or even God. It's just the reality of the situation we're living in.

There has been a steady decline in memberships of all traditional denominations of Christianity, including traditional Protestant ones. The only denominations that hold their own, or are growing, seem to be those with a Evangelical or Pentacostal emphasis, especially the " megachurches". There are a lot of statistics out there that show these trends. That said, I believe there are two factors driving the trends. One, of course, is the always increasing secularism/ materialism of modern life. Religion has become abstract, a concept, no where as real as the myriad of engrossing gadgets, possessions, and entertainments. Couple the fascination with materialism with the ever- growing idea that science has replaced belief, and there you have it.

Now, as to the increase in non- traditional denominations, especially the megachurches, I believe that these churches offer a compromise between the religious experience and the now ingrained fascination with materialism and entertainment. They are churches for capitalists who have their faith in Christianity, or better, Christian's who have their faith in capitalism. Many of these churches teach that God wants you to be materially successful and prosperous, Essentially, God will reward you materially, in the here and now, for your charity and tithes...... you will prosper. Hence, they are promoting a " prosperity Gospel", a gospel well suited to a society looking for an alternative teaching of the Beatitudes. Additionally, and very importantly, the services at these churches feature the polished and spell -binding speakers that fulfill the modern necessity of entertainment too.

The observations made by LionHppo44 concerning the disappearance of ethnic ties and tradition, and how they effect Byzantine Catholic churches, are well stated and, I believe, correct.

There is also what seems to be renewed interest in old Catholic rites and conversions to Orthodoxy. At face value, these seem anomalies. These are surprising given that both faiths represent very conservative/ traditional approaches. The question is though, are they a genuine re- investigation of traditional truths, or are they a fearful reaction, a throwback, against modernity...a modern world that seems to have no moral core? Is this an interest that represents a "running toward" or a "running away" from something?

There does seem to be a changing tide coming soon to North America. My parish was almost completely dead five years ago, and now one of the reasons we are talking about removing the pews is because we need more room for people in the nave! Granted, we are a small parish, but the trend here is significant. In addition to Roman transplants and reverts, multiple young men have converted from nonbelief in the past couple years, and there is a young women beginning to inquire. Some of our young men are also seriously discerning calls to ordination. Also, there are many stories online of young people seeking God and turning to religion. And they don't settle for watered-down, half-secular faith. They already experienced the pains and shortcomings of modernist, godless life. They want the real thing, so they turn to traditional churches and rites (TLM, hardcore Orthodox, etc.). The momentum is growing. In some places, the faith will continue to slowly (or quickly) die. But in others, the light of Christ will shine anew, rekindled - or, rather - resurrected from the death that has befallen our Western societies. Our God rose from the dead and won the war already. Too often, it seems we have forgotten that. If we in the church do not proclaim his victory, then why should someone come join us? We need a change of attitude to one befitting of Christian (life, not death). Maybe then, we will start to see our parishes buck the trend of dying and start living again.

In my area, it seems all the parishes were built just to die. The buildings barely had capacity for their starting congregations, and it was always downhill from there. Combined with very few ordinations, and the result was almost completely disappearing within 1.5 generations. Now, at least in this area, the momentum has changed. We are still way below our former numbers, but I'm confident that will change soon. While my parish seems to have had the greatest comeback so far, it is not the only one. There is reason to hope. So let's not focus on the doom and gloom. Instead, let us be excited for the future that Our Shepherd can bring - widespread renewal with intensity too great for us to imagine at the moment. And let us pray that he will bring it soon. And let us work towards it in our own lives and do what he places in our lives to work towards that future.

I'm not sure what it would be like to try living the faith at a parish that you watch slowly die out over 10, 20, 30 years. Maybe if I lived through the experiences many of you have, I'd have a different outlook. For now, though, it seems to me like we need to stop focusing so much on what has gone wrong and talking like we we're disconnected observers who can't do anything to change it. Let's start talking about hope for the future instead of despair about the past. Christ is risen from the dead, by death he trampled death, and to those in the tombs, he granted life. Let us therefore stop passively waiting for our Eastern Churches to rot in the grave and instead start living like God gave and gives us life (because he does).

That is wonderful news! For the Byzantine rite Catholic Churches especially, doing things like removing the pews, getting rid of the rosary before the Liturgy and offering orthros/matins and other authentic moves are breathing new life into a parish. Now if only our Ruthenian Church would go back to our proper Liturgy sans all the changes of a few decades ago. One can only hope.