www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eucharistic Adoration

Dear Serge,

Let me reiterate that so much of what you've said bears repeating again and again!

But I would make the argument that Eastern Catholics who have this practice as a private devotion could and even should (from a moral standpoint) keep it.

There were a number of times in the history of the Unia when groups of Eastern Catholics returned to Orthodoxy and their Latinized practices were not discarded, only integrated into the local life of the Church.

This has recently happened with the Orthodox Church in Western Ukraine where the practice of the Stations of the Cross and also of Eucharistic public Adoration with the Monstrance is popular. I have their little devotional booklets published by the Orthodox (not Eastern Catholics). There are some other Western devotional practices in the life of Orthodox that I won't mention here for fear of horrifying others . . .

The Orthodox Church is resilient and vibrant. It can and does borrow things for local usage. Pastoral needs are judged in individual cases, but I think the Orthodox Church and bishops know what they are doing. Don't you?

Alex

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

I appreciate the gentle words of Serge and Orthodox Catholic on this topic

I wish that people were not afraid of liturgical cross pollenization. It's healthy.

It's been great for the west. Think of the Kyrie and all the other Greek lingo in western liturgy. Is this Hellenization? Maybe but so be it. It's a pleasant reminder of a time when we all were one.

I think the schism really started when east and west stopped talking to each other and QUIT borrowing from one another. If reconciliation occurs it will be by the grace of God and because we started talking to and learning from each other. The world's getting smaller, and now we live next door to each other. There is going to be influence both ways. Let's be happy about that and heal this damned schism!

Christ is manifest to the Gentiles!

David

Dear RichC,

From the standpoint of long-time usage, Eucharistic Adoration, the Rosary and Stations of the Cross are indeed "ours."

The Ukrainian Catholic Church holds on to those devotions not only because they are long-time Latinizations, but also because, historically, they were a religious/cultural "buffer" against Russification.

The first things the Russians did when they came into Galicia was to go after Latinizations including the devotion to the Sacred Heart.

In the prayerbook, "My Saviour" published by the Redemptorist Fathers, Fr. Michael Schudlo, C.Ss.R. quotes a Russian source that discussed why they were so much against the Sacred Heart and other devotions.

Basically, the quote says that this devotion is "aimed squarely against the Russian Empire because it comes from the West and is designed to break it up." (sic).

Yes, this is a Latin devotion. Yes, it is popular in the Ukrainian Catholic church for more than just questions of Byzantine ritual purity.

But, we must also remember that Latinization also affected the Orthodox Church and that Sacred Heart devotions, Immaculate Conception, Rosary etc. were locally practiced even by Orthodox Saints such as Dmytry of Rostov, Joasaph Horlenko of Bilhorod, Paul Koniuskevich of Tobilsk, John Maximovitch of Siberia, Arsenius Matsievich and Sophronius Krystalsky.

These were private devotions, of course and not ones that entered the public liturgical life of the Church to any degree.

Again, I would suggest that these can remain so for us as well. However, in Ukraine right now, both Orthodox and CAtholic Churches practice the Stations of the Cross and Eucharistic Adoration.

I wouldn't suggest going over there and trying to separate them from their practices.

They won't let them go . . .

Alex

Alex,

I've been told the same cross-pollination is common in the Middle East, including the Holy Land.

Ukrainian Catholics, it seems, often fall into a habit of defining themselves in terms what they are not. Byzantine practices to say they are not Polish, but at the same time Latin practices to say they are not Russian. All at the same time, a mix'n'match in church that Catholicism technically doesn't allow.

Was very happy to see yesterday on the TV program "КОНТАКТ' from Canada that the Studites have a very Orthodox-oriented monastery, Mother of God, in Ontario. The игумен (abbot), Fr Gregory, bearded and in подрясник with a three-bar pectoral cross (slanted bottom bar), preached a long sermon in modern Ukrainian. I didn't know if this community was Catholic or Orthodox till the end credits! So perhaps this hybridism as the measure of Ukrainianness is going away.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

The monastery is very beautiful indeed and is on the grounds of a former Trappist monastery.

The Trappists left and even turned down a lucrative offer from a Buddhist monastic community to allow the Ukrainian Studites to purchase the property with the proviso that they look after the graves of the three Trappist Monks buried there.

The devotions of the Ukrainian Catholic AND Orthodox Churches came in not only by way of imposed Latinization, but also because of close contact with RC's either through western university education or otherwise.

Very often, someone like Fr. Isidore Dolnitsky would create Akathists to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception to help keep Ukrainian CAtholics from attending Latin devotions to the same in RC churches.

Again, religion is always mixed in with culture and politics and to attend the RC Church one risked not only becoming Latinized (i.e. RC) but also losing one's national identity (becoming Polish or other).

The Kyivan Orthodox Baroque had many Latin devotions and even a strong Latin current in architecture and painting, as you know.

This was also prominent in Russia from the time of Peter the Great who personally emulated the West, the Jesuits and Latin and considered so much of Byzantine Orthodoxy as backward, peasant-like and as something that kept Russia from entering the modern age etc.

But nothing exists in a vaccuum, after all. One Russian priest told me that he was convinced St Seraphim of Sarov got his devotion to the Rosary from practices imported, not by RC's, but by Eastern Catholics returning to Orthodoxy after a century or so of living under Latinized circumstances.

This is the current case in Ukraine as well.

And, yes, you've summed it up nicely. The hybrid that exists is a "cultural chameleon" in the sense that Ukies got it from both Western and Eastern sides and so adapted to develop an identity that was not totally either.

The Catholic Church may be against ritual mixing, but it has never denounced the existence of western private devotions among the Easterners such as the Rosary etc.

Pope Paul VI even encouraged mutual ritual sharing and participation among Catholics of different rites. And since I'm an obedient papist, I find nothing more satisfying than participating in the liturgies of other Rites and Churches, learning from them and adopting things that I find meaningful for my own.

If that is wrong, then I don't want to be right!

I think some of us Easterners can become, in the words of Andrew Sheptytsky, "Eastern chauvinists" and that is fine if one likes that sort of thing.

I know Eastern Orthodox who have begun the practice of Stations of the Cross etc. once they saw their Western Rite counterparts practice them.

Such devotions are now, to their minds, "Orthodox."

And we Ukrainians and Ruthenians had to do what we had to do to protect ourselves from RC and EO "big brother."

It is also true that the Ukrainian Catholic church almost has two "rites" within it, one more Latin, the other more Eastern.

Right now, nothing can be done about them. Even if the Pope and the Ukrainian Synod told them otherwise, they wouldn't listen.

And if one went into their Churches to try and forcibly remove their devotions, they would beat one up, no doubt.

But, also, just because a devotion has its roots in the Western Church, doesn't mean that it can't get "translated" into the Eastern spirituality.

St. Vladimir's Seminary published St Nicholas Cabasilas' book on the Divine Liturgy and the commentary discussed the Saint's theme of devotion to the Heart of Christ (also a theme with St Nicodemus of Mt. Athos).

The commentator undoubtedly distinguished the "Western pietistic, individualistic devotion to the Heart of Jesus" from that of the Orthodox liturgical veneration for the Heart of Christ.

St Nicodemos of Mt. Athos, in discussing the role of the Heart of Christ went beyond even what RC theologians of his day were saying, (e.g. St Alphonsus Liguori) and denied the heart was merely symbolic of Christ's love etc.

I just think it is possible to do a lot of East-West devotional contrasting that is superficial at best.

There are differences between our Churches, but they are more subtle.

You watch "Kontakt?" I've been on it a number of times . . . I'll stick to my day job, however.

Alex

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

The Catholic Church may be against ritual mixing, but it has never denounced the existence of western private devotions among the Easterners such as the Rosary etc.

Agreed, as you know.

If that is wrong, then I don't want to be right!

I like some country music too.

It is also true that the Ukrainian Catholic church almost has two "rites" within it, one more Latin, the other more Eastern.

I can imagine — I think the Ruthenians are similarly bifurcated, with the Latiniaks the numerical majority churchwide.

Right now, nothing can be done about them. Even if the Pope and the Ukrainian Synod told them otherwise, they wouldn't listen.

And if one went into their Churches to try and forcibly remove their devotions, they would beat one up, no doubt.

I don't doubt any of that. And I'd much rather see half-Tridentinized Ukrainian Catholics than half-Amchurched ones.

St. Vladimir's Seminary published St Nicholas' book on the Divine Liturgy and the commentary discussed the Saint's theme of devotion to the Heart of Christ (also a theme with St Nicodemus of Mt. Athos). ...

I love the Sacred Heart even though I don't really practice it — he is человеколюбец! One Orthodox slur I've heard against it is that it's Nestorian, separating Christ's humanity from His divinity, which I can understand believing if one has no idea what Roman Catholics really believe. But objectively that argument is silly. The Sacred Heart is a logical follow-up to belief in the Incarnation. "You worship a heart!' to my ears is as wrong and nonsensical, and in the same category as the Protestant taunts "You worship paintings!' or especially "You worship a piece of bread!'

The commentator undoubtedly distinguished the "Western pietistic, individualistic devotion to the Heart of Jesus" from that of the Orthodox liturgical veneration for the Heart of Christ.

Undoubtedly.

You watch "Kontakt"?

Да/так! Почти каждую неделю.

I've been on it a number of times... I'll stick to my day job, however.

Wow! Поздравляю тебя — I'll look for you (specifically, the name flashed under a talking head).

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

Your post here only confirms what I've always believed about the likes of you . . .

That you are a man of wide culture, understanding, strong values, artistic sensitivity and someone whom the Church, East and West, desperately needs.

My vote is for you to become the next leader of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, and I think our problems would be over.

I salute you!

Alex

Sorry to bud in here, but I have a few points:

Firstly, how can the Holy Eucharist be holier during a "Suplicatsia"? i.e. the priest has to hold the monstrance with a special cloth, etc.
Wouldn't it be "holier", if this can be said, when we receive it ourselves during Holy Communion?

Secondly, I think the Pope did ban us, Eastern Catholics, from doing any more Suplicatsias.

Sure, it is a nice idea, but since we have our own traditions, I think that we should focus on them first. Once we have regular Vespers and Matins (or Vsenochnoye bdinie -- my preference) at all of our parishes, then we can look into more services from other sources.

Dear Daniil,

Since you are from ST Elias, I will watch myself here . . .

The "Suplicatsia" is a Byzantinized Latin form of devotion, popularized by Fr. Isidore Dolnytsky at one point, but which has largely fallen into disuse among our parishes who are part of the "Byzantine Reform" if I may coin a phrase.

The Catholic Church would prefer all Catholics to focus their Eucharistic devotion primarily on the Liturgy. We have always had the essence of the Suplicatsia, the blessing of the people with the Holy Mysteries, following Communion and I think this is what the Latins tried to replicate with the Monstrance, since the blessing wouldn't liturgically fit into their Mass.

The Pope hasn't "banned" the Suplicatsia, but the Catholic Church would definitely like us to remove Latinizations of which this is certainly one.

The problem is when you have parishes, such as in Ukraine, where the Suplicatsia, the Stations of the Cross and other Latin devotions are very popular in the wake of the fall of communism and Russian Orthodox hegemony.

Even Ukrainian Orthodox churches have these devotions and I have a Stations of the Cross booklet published by the Orthodox where it is suggested that all Orthodox Churches set up the 15 stations around their buildings (the Orthodox add the Resurrection as the 15th Station).

Right now, it would be difficult to "reform" those things, especially since the Orthodox are into them as well.

When you say "traditions" this can mean a few things.

They can mean "ancient Byzantine traditions."

Or they can refer to a religious/cultural amalgam where certain popular Latin practices used for years, even centuries by our people are also understood as "our traditions."

A priest in Toronto was taken to court because his Church, I think you know which one it was, was constantly ringing the "Angelus bells" morning, noon and night.

The priest was trained in Rome, enough said.

He won the case against an atheist neighbour living across the street.

In his television interview, the Ukrainian Catholic priest said, "We must preserve our traditions."

Enough said all around . . .

Alex

Dear Orthodox Catholic,

The only time I have actually ever seen a Suplicatsia was in North America, and the singing was lead by, you may want to sit down, the venerable pastor of St. Elias. Both he and my father have fond memories of the service from their childhood, although in principle they do disagree with it. It's up to the younger generation to make sure we get back to our original practices/traditions. I like white klobuks and mitred arch-priests (both are latinizations), so I guess my idea of traditions would be kind of a mix of what we originally did a few hundred years ago mized in with common Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox practices to fill in the gaps.

Also, there is a legitimate Orthodox equivalent to the stations of the cross. It's a service called Pasii, written by Metropolitan Peter (Mohyla). It's similar to a Moleben, with the Ususal beginning, a Great Litany, God is the Lord, the Tropar "Ehda Slavni uchenyky..." and then, I believe a prokimen, vsiakoye Dykhanie, gospel, and dissmisal.

Maybe one day this service will be more widespread

Dear Daniil,

Noble aspirations, to be sure!

But, from a pastoral perspective, the Latinisms that are especially widespread among the Orthodox and Catholic Ukrainians in the homeland are things that we will be forced to tolerate, like it or not.

St. Peter Mohyla's "Passiyi" were done by Fr. Serge Keleher when he was in Toronto.

This service, plus the Akathist to the Passion by Metropolitan Innocent of Odessa, were actually based on western devotional models.

St Tikhon of Zadonsk actually had a version of the Stations of the Cross in his cell.

St Dmytry of Rostov venerated the Wounds of Jesus, especially the Wound in His Side and Heart (which won this Orthodox saint loud praise from the Basilians).

Technically, the five-part Passiyi are still a Latinization, since they are done during the Great Fast on Sundays when the Great Fast is about personal repentance rather than meditation on the Passion of Christ, reserved for Holy Week. Sunday is also a celebration of the Resurrection even during the Great Fast when such a service would not be in keeping with that spirit.

I'm not, in any way, a defender of the Suplikatsia, as its essence is already contained within our Liturgy.

Alex

Yes, yes...I know Pasii is probably just as Latinized as anything else, but it is a latinization through the filter of Orthodoxy, so...I don't know.

So you have the service book for Pasii, or know if it's in a library in the Toronto area?

I wasn't aware of all the Western influence on those usually portrayed as the "Defenders of Orthodoxy" by such Churches as ROCOR! Have you ever read Tuptalo's Psalter to the Mother of God? Very strange...

Dear Daniil,

Yes, the Passii can be found at St Vladimir's Institute library in Toronto. I used to have a copy, but don't any more.

I do have an Orthodox "Stations of the Cross" from Ukraine with the 15th station of the Resurrection.

Some of these Orthodox Churches actually place the stations around the Church and then go from Station to Station.

If you'd like a copy, I could send you one, please let me know your mailing address by way of private e-mail.

The Kyivan Baroque Saints often travelled to Paris to study at Catholic universities and adapt western methods in order to oppose them more effectively at home.

But what happened was that they tended to bring back with them a number of western devotions that they fell in love with.

There were Orthodox brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception, with a medal that they wore and the prayer: "All Immaculate Mother of God, save us!"

The Little Office of Our Lady was used privately as was the Rosary.

St Dmytry Typtalo also had the devotion to the Five Sorrows of the Mother of God (Tale of the Five Prayers which is actually in the Jordanville Prayer Book).

He also prayed a "Bohoroditse Divo" at the start of every hour when the bells chimed.

His psalter was actually a remake of that done by St Bonaventure in the West (Mother Angelica's website has an on-line copy).

The 150 Marian Psalms and the 9 Odes imitated the Davidic Psalter and was especially popular with St Louis de Montfort and others in the West.

St Ephrem the Syrian also did a similar Psalter much earlier, of course, and Jordanville carries this.

Do you know where a copy of St Dmytry Tuptalo's Psalter could be purchased?

Alex

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:


>>>As the Melkite Archbishop Raya said in his prayerbook, "the East has not always understood the West's devotion to the static Presence of our Lord in Holy Communion - but this devotion is legitimate." Raya approved a Supplicatory service of Eucharistic Adoration for the Melkites and a Feast as well.

Serge is right, of course, that this devotion was imported from the West.<<<


The Feast of the Divine Body is still kept on the Melkite liturgical calendar for Melkites of the United States. This feast will be celebrated this year on May 30th, 2002. I myself visited a Melkite parish to celebrate the feast last year.
This feast day-while originally from the West- is very popular among the Melkite laity, and among some Melkite clergy as well. This feast is still very popular in Lebanon, where eucharistic processions are done on that day.

It may be surprising for some to know that this feast is still celebrated by the Melkites, considering that the Melkite Church is at the forefront of the de-latinization movement.

This feast also is part of the Ukrainian Catholic liturgical calendar of the United States although under the title, "Feast of the Holy Eucharist". It also will be celebrated on May 30th, 2002.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: griego catolico ]

Dear Greigo,

Yes it is and is very popular in Ukraine itself. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in western Ukraine also has the Suplicatsia or blessing of the faithful with the Monstrance in its prayerbooks!

Believe it, or not!

Alex