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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
Full seminaries do not tell the whole story.
I would be more interested in seeing the stats of seminary enrollment and ordinations.
I'd like to see the SSPX's stats. I do know however that the FSSP, a section of the SSPX that is in union with us, doesn't even advertise for vocations anymore. Despite their recent expansion (to 150 rooms, IIRC) at their seminary, they still have a several year-waiting list. There's also apparently plenty for them to after ordination and my impression is that most of them do get ordained. I heard this from group of elder and senior seminarians who I met when they visited a Melkite Church.They were all great people, we're blessed to have them in the vineyard. As for what the SSPX really thinks, check out this link: http://www.sspx.org/sspxfaqs.htm I really don't see how Rome's ever going to make progress with them.
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Talks and a reconciliation process is suppose to resume with the society and Rome in October. Hope the results are fruitful.
Pope St. Pius X, pray for us !
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Originally posted by kansassummer:
Talks and a reconciliation process is suppose to resume with the society and Rome in October. Hope the results are fruitful.
Pope St. Pius X, pray for us ! I pray for the same. In Christ, Bill
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If only it was about the Missal of Pius V, it would have been sorted long ago but it is not. The SSPX have gone on to forge links with those working against the UGCC and other Particular Catholic Churches. God's blessing on The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter  which is not part or linked to any organisation that is not IN the Catholic Church.
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Originally posted by rcguest: [b]They will have to become Roman Catholics first. The 'legal' RCs are St Peter the Priest.
[/b]Not all are Roman Catholics. Those who attend the SSPX and adhere to the schism are in schism just as much as the SSPX is and have removed themselves from the Church.
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Originally posted by MarkosC: Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[b]Full seminaries do not tell the whole story.
I would be more interested in seeing the stats of seminary enrollment and ordinations.
I do know however that the FSSP, a section of the SSPX that is in union with us, doesn't even advertise for vocations anymore. Despite their recent expansion (to 150 rooms, IIRC) at their seminary, they still have a several year-waiting list. There's also apparently plenty for them to after ordination and my impression is that most of them do get ordained. I heard this from group of elder and senior seminarians who I met when they visited a Melkite Church.They were all great people, we're blessed to have them in the vineyard.
As for what the SSPX really thinks, check out this link:
http://www.sspx.org/sspxfaqs.htm
I really don't see how Rome's ever going to make progress with them. [/b]The FSSP are not " a section of the SSPX that is in union with us". While some of them might have been part of the SSPX at one time they are no longer. Thats like calling me a wicca who is now in union with the Catholic Church. Originally posted by Pavel Ivanovich: If only it was about the Missal of Pius V, it would have been sorted long ago but it is not.
The SSPX have gone on to forge links with those working against the UGCC and other Particular Catholic Churches.
God's blessing on The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter which is not part or linked to any organisation that is not IN the Catholic Church. Amen! David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice (postulant really)
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The errors of the SSPX are many. Two sites that well document them are: SSPX Agenda [ sspx.agenda.tripod.com] SSPX cheatsheet [ jloughnan.tripod.com] Perhaps Father Gerald Murry, who the SSPX uses almost like a poster-boy as support from an neutral canonist said it best: Another important criticism I received concerns the question of the possible invalidity of the declaration of excommunication issued by the Congregation for Bishops. A couple of well-versed canonists pointed out something crucial which I neglected to include in my thesis, and which probably led to an incorrect inference on the part of many readers: once the competent authority in the Church, in this case the Congregation for Bishops, has publicly declared a latae sententiae (automatic) penalty to have been incurred, the persons named in that declaration are bound to submit to the public effects of the penalty.
They are not free to simply ignore the penalty, alleging reasons why it does not apply to them. They may be sincerely convinced that the penalty was not incurred automatically. They may be convinced that the declaration was invalid. They may even be able to prove their case. But they cannot simply assert this, and then act as though there had been no declaration of excommunication. They must prove their case in an administrative recourse. If they choose not to lodge a recourse, then the matter rests as established by the competent Church authority. They are excommunicated.
This presumption in favor of the validity of administrative and judicial acts of Church authority exists in order to guarantee the good order of the society which is the Church. The four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre are and must be considered as excommunicated until such time as Church authority withdraws the declaration of excommunication. [ latinmassmagazine.com]
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A lot of this conversation isn't new at all. Go here: https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ulti...d=results&record=2453975-132538-KHD3 to see past threads concerning most of these exact issues. Anhelyna, I didn't mean all RC churches are like that! Heck no; but it is an unfortunate truth that some really are, and that some Catholics who wish to practice their faith in an orthodox environment really can't do so. Logos Teen
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In fact, Catholics who attend SSPX Masses or churches are just that: Roman Catholics. The SSPX is a sacerdotal fraternity and does not include laymembers. While it is possible that actual members of the SSPX are schismatic, i.e. the priests, monks, and the four bishops, people who go to SSPX churches are not schismatic. Teen: It might be well to check the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you make assertions that appear to be authoritative like the one above. If any Catholic receives a sacrament, Eucharist or other, from a priest who is NOT a Catholic priest, he automatically becomes NOT A CATHOLIC because of what it is we do when we enter Eucharistic Communion. Eucharistic Communion IS MORE THAN simply receiving the Lord's Holy BOdy and Precious Blood. It is a public statement that one is in full and complete agreement with the priest (and his bishop and all those in communion with them) who serves the Liturgy. It is a public statement that one is in full, complete, and public agreement with all the doctrinal statements that that priest's hierarch and his brother bishops teach. That is why we are not to approach other Churches for sacraments under ordinary circumstances. If you or anyone else has done this, the normal way that one is reconciled with the Church is to go to confession AND ABSTAIN from receiving communion in the Catholic Church until one has been to confession. This type of act--approaching another Church's clergy is a serious sin for us. And as for the many discussions that have been done here about the emergency situations where a Catholic may approach clergy of the Orthodox Churches, the Polish National Catholic Church and certain others, the bishops of the United States have long ago stated that the conditions DO NOT appear in the United States for us to do so. In other words, there are sufficient numbers of our own clergy in this country to enable us to remain in communion with the Church without declaring an "emergency." Again and again I've said that the Christian life is not a "do it yourself" game where one learns a little bit, makes oneself dangerous to one's own soul, and then flies by the seat of one's pants thinking one is not involved in serious sin. In Christ, BOB
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Originally posted by theophan: In fact, Catholics who attend SSPX Masses or churches are just that: Roman Catholics. The SSPX is a sacerdotal fraternity and does not include laymembers. While it is possible that actual members of the SSPX are schismatic, i.e. the priests, monks, and the four bishops, people who go to SSPX churches are not schismatic.
It might be well to check the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you make assertions that appear to be authoritative like the one above. If any Catholic receives a sacrament, Eucharist or other, from a priest who is NOT a Catholic priest, he automatically becomes NOT A CATHOLIC because of what it is we do when we enter Eucharistic Communion. Eucharistic Communion IS MORE THAN simply receiving the Lord's Holy BOdy and Precious Blood. It is a public statement that one is in full and complete agreement with the priest (and his bishop and all those in communion with them) who serves the Liturgy. It is a public statement that one is in full, complete, and public agreement with all the doctrinal statements that that priest's hierarch and his brother bishops teach. That is why we are not to approach other Churches for sacraments under ordinary circumstances.
If you or anyone else has done this, the normal way that one is reconciled with the Church is to go to confession AND ABSTAIN from receiving communion in the Catholic Church until one has been to confession. This type of act--approaching another Church's clergy is a serious sin for us.
And as for the many discussions that have been done here about the emergency situations where a Catholic may approach clergy of the Orthodox Churches, the Polish National Catholic Church and certain others, the bishops of the United States have long ago stated that the conditions DO NOT appear in the United States for us to do so. In other words, there are sufficient numbers of our own clergy in this country to enable us to remain in communion with the Church without declaring an "emergency."
Again and again I've said that the Christian life is not a "do it yourself" game where one learns a little bit, makes oneself dangerous to one's own soul, and then flies by the seat of one's pants thinking one is not involved in serious sin.
In Christ,
BOB Bob, I missed Teen making this statement that the SSPX does not contain lay members. A simple look at the SSPX website shows that this statement is in error. The eleventh item on the left hand menu lists "SSPX THIRD ORDER". Here is a link to that page, The Third Order of the SSPX [ sspx.org] . By looking at this page you will see that the SSPX does contain lay members. Just look at the first question and you will see that the SSPX is in no way just for priests any longer. They have brothers, sisters, oblates, and a lay third order. David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice (postulant really)
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DavidB,
I didn't know about the Third Order so you are right: there are some members of the SSPX that are not sacerdotal or avowed religious, etc. I do think it would be safe to assume that most of the people who attend SSPX aren't members of this Third Order, and it's certainly fact that many do not.
I am going to request that Bob and I continue our discourse privately because in the past this issue has become very heated when it involves a large group...
Logos Teen
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Originally posted by Teen Of The Incarnate Logos:
DavidB,
I didn't know about the Third Order so you are right: there are some members of the SSPX that are not sacerdotal or avowed religious, etc. I do think it would be safe to assume that most of the people who attend SSPX aren't members of this Third Order, and it's certainly fact that many do not.
While this is most like true, that is that most of those in the pews at the SSPX Mass are not members of the SSPX Third Order, that in no way tells us that most of those in those same pews do not adhere to the schism. We just can not know that. IMHO it is not a good thing to attend the Mass celebrated by a schismatic group. The Mass is illicit. The other sacraments are all invalid as the priests do not have faculties from the local ordinary. David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice (postulant really)
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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
The FSSP are not "a section of the SSPX that is in union with us".
While some of them might have been part of the SSPX at one time they are no longer.
Thats like calling me a wicca who is now in union with the Catholic Church.
Ooops! Talk about typing without thinking. DavidB you're 100% right. The FSSP may have had some SPPX heritiage, but they're in no way associated with the SSPX anymore. Apologies to any FSSPers who may read this!
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Yes support the ones who are Catholics. Those who are just doing their own thing and going all over the place just because they use the Pius V missal we can but pray for. I personally dont hold much hope for reunification. They In my view are set to go the long distance as a more recent version of the Old Catholics.
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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
The other sacraments are all invalid as the priests do not have faculties from the local ordinary. David, my friend and brother, I would disagree with you as to that particular statement. The Sacraments offered by validly ordained priests lack licity, but not validity. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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