www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology No Progress with Vatican says SSPX

I've waited a long time here for someone to finally make this statement. I've often thought of saying this here myself, but always balked, waiting and hoping to see it from someone else.

May God bless you abundantly Doug,
Bill

Bill,

Thank you so much! May God bless you as well. Thank you for the link to the TLM in Pittsburgh, I enjoyed the photos. It is nice when a Bishop makes a parish available for people who prefer the TLM, with a complete Holy Day schedule and sacraments.

Peter B- I was able to find the reference I was thinking of. It is from the Catholic Exchange.

Another Look at the Orans Issue [catholicexchange.com]

I also came across this article from EWTN.

Orans Posture [ewtn.com]

In 1995 the US Bishops voted to make the orans posture permissible during the Our Father in a revision to the Sacramentary. That Sacramentary was submitted to the Holy See in 1999 and rejected. The revised Sacramentary would have been replaced by the new Roman Missal in any case. In November 2001 the American Bishops considered US specific adaptions to the GIRM, and the orans posture wasn't among them. The GIRM thus specifies no gesture for the people during the Our Father.

Doug

Why would the local ordinary NEED permission from Rome to allow the TLM in vernacular? Seems to me that if nothing changes but the language, this is and should be the option of the local bishop and really is not really something to bother Rome with. Now if the bishop CHANGES something - that I can see as potentially Rome's perogative to correct, but language should be the decision of the ordinary - no?

With all due respect, what is it about:

• the SSPX,
• the adoption of the orans posture by the congregation,
• the insertion of Latin into the English version of a NO Mass, or
• the relative visual and auditory appeal of the TLM versus the NO

that merits 5 pages of posts on an Eastern forum?

This thread began as "Church News" and had validity as such, because, be we East or West, we should know what is happening in the Church as a whole. But, it long since ceased to have merit as a meaningful topic here (and I admit guilt in contributing to that).

Many years,

Neil

Not to ignore Neil's point, but I wonder whether it is more of an issue of using an approved TLM translation. Does anyone know if an approved TLM English translation (for liturgical use) exists?

I happen to agree with Neil's point. So in order for this to carry on, and since it has ceased to having any analysis or discussion of Church News I am tranferring this thread to Faith and Worship.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Couple of points:

There is no approved translation of the TLM in English or any vernacular language.

If one checks the indult, I believe that it mandates that the TLM be used exactly as it is found in the 1962 books and no modifications may be made, whether in language or otherwise. This is not to be a liturgical development alongside the path taken by the Council, rather it is something to be used as is by those who request it.

Rome alone approves translations of liturgical books for the Latin Church. That is why the lengthy process of obtaining "recognitio" takes so much time. Remember that the English version of the second edition of the Roman Missal was completely rejected and the third edition came along, needing to be translated, before that whole issue could be resolved. So all the time and money expended in that process was essentially wasted.

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Doug,

Thank you both for the clarification and explanations of your position and for the links. As this topic is a bit out of my area (and a little off the topic of this thread besides), suffice it to say that I think you/they make some good points (except about comparing the orans position with hand-holding).

Thanks,
Peter.

As Theophan stated, the TLM can only be celebrated in Latin and is not approved for any other language*.

As for the Novus Ordo in Latin, I believe that Latin is the only language, besides the vernacular, which can be used entirely in the Mass with the priest's permission, i.e. no such permission being needed by a higher authority, such as the bishop. For all other languages, the bishop must authorize the use.

I'm pretty sure it goes like this: In your white suburban neighborhood where the vernacular is English, the Mass can be done in English or in Latin with no permission needed, but not, let's say, in Vietnamese, or French, or German.

Logos Teen

*I believe that the one exception to this rule was that Slovenian was allowed for the TLM in Slovenia prior to Vatican II.

Slavonic was and still is an approved language for the Tridentine Rite. It use was published in Glagolitic script and its use was limited to parts of Croatia on the Dalmatian coast and occasional use elsewhwere in the Slavic world.

I believe Greek was allowed as well, but am unsure whether it was actually used or just theoretically thought allowable.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thanks, Fr. Dcn, it was Slavonic I was thinking of, not Slovenian!

Logos Teen

Thank you Fr. Anthony for deleting part of Teen's post.
Teen,that was truly offensive. I'm so tired of reading the ignorant things said against Blacks on this forum. Shame on you.

Peace,
Indigo

Indigo,

Please produce evidence of your accusation..." I'm so tired of reading the ignorant things said against Blacks on this forum "

I find that offensive


james

There is some interesting insights in some of the postings for that can probably be reflection of the place where some are writing from. Teen is writing while based in a place where people of colour were legally bought and sold and used as their owners sought fit. Subsequently they had until very recent times a system of apparthied that would have given South Africa a run for it's money. Hence I suppose the need to make refeence to the issue of what language to use for the Pius V Missal. Where he lives this is I assume the reality of daily life...still. I take is as a given that this does not inform his own personal views.

"I'm pretty sure it goes like this: In your white suburban neighborhood where the vernacular is English, the Mass can be done in English or in Latin with no permission needed, but not, let's say, in Vietnamese, or French, or German."

I don't recall though any negative references to people of colour, or Blacks to use your term here in this forum. The moderators simply would not allow it and everyone here would jump on their complaint button and the system would crash.

Can we move on and stick to the topic....please!

A good article with alot of info...read slowly so it can be properly digested.


http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SP_Davies.html

james