www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Are the Seminaries Pro-Gay?

Good question. I don't know. That would really be taking a lot onto anyone's shoulders. I think it would be more than I could handle. If I can speak honestly, I do agree there are problems in the Church, both East and West. Perhaps experience has given me a pessimistic view on this, but some of the Roman Riters I have met exist in a state of crisis. If they are not reacting to one crisis, it is another. I do understand the upheavals that have happened in their church, and sympathize greatly with them. But they show up with a sour look on their faces,clutching a rosary, with a tale of woe, a dark cloud over their heads, nothing is going right in the Church, the black helicopters are coming, and the sky is falling. Meanwhile, us poor Byzantines are over here enjoying the Divine Liturgy, rejoicing in the love of Christ, and giving thanks for His awesome goodness. Yes, evil exists, but there is still a lot of good out there. The Church has had problems from the beginning and will have them until the end of time. So I would say that I want to be aware of the bad so I will not be taken in by it, but I don't want to lose sight of the good. I want to remember that Christianity is supposed to be a joyful religion and that our battle is not against principalities.

Very witty...however, while the hairstyle of our clergy may not rank up there with, say, the importance of their lifestyle, I would have to say that a priest going "punk" with his hair seems indicative of an immature desire for attention...a longing to be thought of as "with it", cool or, better yet, controversial.

As a working professional, my employer has every right to set out guidelines for the way I dress at work. Why? Because how I present myself to others is a reflection on the whole organization. Like it or not, a priest is an icon of the whole People of God every moment of his life. People look to him as a reflection of what the Church is. Is that the kind of stupid and purile image we want to portray to the culture at large?


True...so what? Does that mean that our children are somehow magically immune from being scandalized by public individuals - especially clergy? I at least try to be a good father to my children, despite my struggle with failure. Is it too much to ask our priests to do the same?


You've got to be kidding. Shall we look at the lessons that were learned from the Clinton scandal(s)? "Oral sex isn't really sex." "You can lie under oath and not be held accountable, so long as people are getting rich off of the economy." And my favorite throwback to Gnostic Dualism..."My personal life doesn't impact my public virtue."

What possible healthy lessons could we then glean from the return of such a person to ministry in a parish?!? Do we, by excusing his outlandish and disordered behavior, reduce the role of a priest merely to a facilitator of liturgical services? (as long as he gets the rubrics right and has a nice signing voice...) What of his role as a spiritual father to a parish?

In certain circumstances, social workers encourage people in dysfunctional family systems to leave their family for their own protection. At least until things are set aright. Jim not only has every right, but I would go so far as to say that he has an obligation to protect his young children from such idiocy. When possible, a father must be a shield for his family.

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: CaelumJR ]

For three reasons:

1. Since Byzantine Catholics are in full communion with the Latin Church, they should be concerned in all charity over the recent scandals, and, where possible, learn from the mistakes of the Latins.

2. The issue is as much cultural and societal as it is moral. Since presumably we don't exist in a cave or BC ghetto, we are not entirely immune from the underlying issues experienced by the Latins.

3. It goes right to the heart of the issue of fitness for ministry. I think there is definitely room for debate over whether a strong and deeply rooted attraction to the same sex should be regarded as an impediment to ordination in any jurisdiction. Some Catholic Bishops have even broached the subject and mentioned their concerns. In my opinion, legitimate differences of opinions should be offered and thoughtfully discussed. Why not here?

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: CaelumJR ]

God is good!

Axios

Glorify Him!

Dear Caelum,

Yes, but perhaps the Latins could learn from US for a change and allow a married priesthood?

That would not resolve the issues here being discussed.

But if anyone wants to look at a way to determine a priestly candidate's sexual orientation, marriage is certainly one possible way.

Again, with more than three quarters of our priests married, we up here DON'T see this as our concern.

Alex

I know of no current seminary problem, just those of a decade ago. From my sources there are still some problems among current clergy. Our best approach is to pray that they will repent and that our bishops will take this issue seriously.

Dan Lauffer

ByzanTN,

I like your approach. One possible correction. Our battles are with "principalities and with powers" but they are unseen.

Dan Lauffer

God is good, and in His goodness he has allowed our churches to preserve the dignity of the married priesthood.

With married clergy, what are the lessons here? I don't see any applicability. As a father, these are not issues I am ignoring but some grievous sins against nature are and should remain
"unspeakable". These things would not have appeared in the media before the 1960s. You are right, this is symptomatic of deeper cultural and societal ills.

Also, fine, if this really is a topic that reflects some kind of general mutual interest to Latin and Eastern Christians, then that thread shouldn't be here but over in Town Hall or somewhere else. This is, after all, "BYZANTINE FAITH AND WORSHIP".

On the issue of fitness for ministry - Fitness for ministry lies within the discernment of the eparch and his consultors. We can talk about "fitness for ministry" and this or that positive moral trait until we are blue in the face but ultimately it is the call of the heirarch.

It is contingent on the hierarch and consultors doing their homework not only with the candidate but with the institutions of formation that the candidate will attend. We can all talk about those things forever, but again ultimately it is up to the hiearchy. I pray with the recent scandals in the Latin hierarchy their liability is becoming more apparent.

I do not mean to be insensistive but those that have been around here for a while know this topic has been driven into the ground on this forum and the moral lessons rehashed again and again.

Want to do something about this? Really do something? Express your feelings to your hierarchy as a member of that hierarchy.

I agree wholeheartedly, Alex! As far as a concern for the BCC, the majority of the priests in the US are single, and many who serve in our parishes are bi-ritual priests who were formed in Latin seminaries. (Not that I have a problem with that, mind you...) I think your situation in Canada is close to the ideal. Would that it were true for all of us here south of the border!

Dear Caelum,

As long as the "Bi" only applies to "ritual" it's O.K.

I have some difficulty understanding the attitudes of RC bishops I met with yesterday who are dead set against a married priesthood.

But, as I told them, what is worse? Priests committing evil acts with children et al., or priests expressing their sexuality within the legitimate and sanctified bounds of marriage.

I suggested to two of them that they might consider marriage the "lesser of two evils" if that would help matters along . . .

If there is a "positive" side to the sex scandal thing among RC priests, it is that the issue of married Latin priests has come to the fore in a way that it never has previously.

Laity are downright nervous about celibate priests. "Does he - you know what?" and other things run through their minds.

Married priests are definitely something Latin Catholic Laity are looking upon in a most favourable light!

(I used to think that the term "Laity" referred to the fact that this is the only category of Catholic in the Latin Church that could get laid . . . Sorry, but I had to say that. Censure me if you will!)

Alex

[ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

I think celibate or married clergy within the RC's should be left up to them. I don't see how either choice addresses the problem.

What is troublesome is that after several years of "reclaiming our heritage" we still have no married clergy in the BCC.

Dan Lauffer

The teaching moment I had in mind was that the sins that public figures think they do and get away with in secret will eventually be brought to light.

Dear Dan,

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

I'm looking at this from the Lay angle.

Can you honestly say that having a Latin married priesthood will not go a long way to reassuring nervous Catholic laity about his whole matter?

Alex

Dear CaelumJR:

Originally posted by byzanTN:
"What in the h*** does this thread have to do with Byzantine Faith and Worship? What is its relation or significance to the liturgical and spiritual life of the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches? These are RC seminaries and seminarians."
NOT ORIGINALLY POSTED BY ME. I merely quoted Diak who make the original post, because I agreed with him. But since we are on the subject of bad priests, how many are there? I am sure there are a few bad apples in the barrel, there always are. But I suspect most are good men. Let me give you an example. Our pastor was ill for several months. Archpriest (at the time) John sent priests from Pittsburgh so we could have Divine Liturgies. He even came one Sunday, himself. Now Knoxville, TN is pretty far removed from Pittsburgh and we don't see many Byzantine priests. But the priests came joyfully. To a man, they were good men who love God, love God's Church, and love God's people. I believe these good men are more representative of the state of the priesthood, than the few bad ones who exist.