www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Touching the floor during liturgy

The times I've attended St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church and the time I attended the local OCA parish for Divine Liturgy, many of the parishioners make a full bow with their arm extended touching or almost touching the floor with the tips of their fingers. I have not seen this practice in the Ruthenian parish I attend or the time I attended a Greek Orthodox Liturgy. Is this an exclusively Russian practice? When did it originate, what does it symbolize and what is it called? Thank you.

In Christ,
Anthony

P.S. When I saw it, I immediately followed along and think it is wonderful.

Dear Anthony,

This is the traditional way to perform a "metanoia" from the waste.

I don't know if New Skete kept it in their liturgical reform, but one never knows what some Orthodox will be doing these days.

The Old Believers bring a mat or a pillow to Church with them (and at home) on which they place their hands when doing any kind of bow or prostration.

They do this to keep their right hand, the hand with which they make the Sign of the Cross, unsullied.

Again, New Skete and others may have different ideas and I wouldn't want to second-guess them.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thank you for the reply. Is this done outside of the Russian jurisdictions? I would do it at my parish, but I'd probably stick out like a sore thumb. Sometimes I do prostrations after Liturgy has ended and everyone went downstairs for coffee and cake. :-)

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

That's a very good question. (Forgive me, but I'm still giggling with glee over that New Skete SNAFU, maybe I will take some time off from here, as Serge so strongly suggests).

My parish doesn't do bows or prostrations, and one priest told me it's because our people have historically had weak spines . . .

What I like to do is to get in the back of the church where few will see me and even fewer will care.

What I've found is that there will always be those who will imitate you and perhaps you could start a new tradition.

I remember being in an Antiochian Orthodox Church where a Ukrainian bishop was.

He was the only prelate who crossed himself after every petition of the ektenias.

The other Orthodox observed him closely and by the end of the service the majority were doing this.

The full tradition is most beautiful and I think we should have the option of following it.

If someone asks you, tell them you are from another parish.

You don't necessarily have to tell them you are "Orthodox." With the recent goings on at New Skete, I think even they want to be quiet about that.

Alex

Anthony,

Yes, that's how we do it.

I've seen Orthodox-oriented Ruthenians do it in reverse order from us: bow, touch the floor, then cross themselves.

The rule is one doesn't do full prostrations in church on Sunday because it is a little Пасха, a joyful day celebrating the Resurrection.

Actually, as Bishop Kallistos writes, there is no hard and fast rule telling the faithful when to cross themselves. I love doing it, but for me personally, after every petition in a litany is too much. And that's OK.

http://oldworldrus.com

I also have seen it among some Ruthenians. I think it is a personnal thing.

Dmitri

I like doing metanoia here among the Ukrainians, but it is hard with the pew in the way.

The only other person in our parish who does it is another guy who has visited various monasteries as I have.

The monks at Glorious Ascension Monastery in Resaca, GA bow whenever they sing "More honorable than the cherubim..." Is this a Russian practice?

Stefan

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Stefan-Ivan ]

I agree with you, Serge, that no prostrations or kneeling is to be done on Sunday, but for some reason the Old Believers do both on Sundays. Is this the older practice or what? Does someone know?

We have been taught, up here in the Pacific Northwest, by Mitred Archpriest Josef the practice of touching the floor while blessing ourselves when entering and leaving the Holy Temple, before kissing the icon on the tetrapod, and before we receive the Eucharist. My recollection also says that it is done as Alex has stated. "This is the traditional way to perform a "metanoia" from the waste." It is a very beautiful way to humble ourselves in the presence of God.

My priest does that a lot...and I do it a lot also...

Doesn't matter which comes first...bow, touch floor then cross....OR cross, bow, touch floor..either way...we do it a lot!

We also do a lot of prostrations especially during Great Lent...during the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.

I hope and wish that more Byzantine Catholics would develop this tradition. I've noticed that they tend to be "very self concious" when displaying Christian piety or acts (another form of Latinization ).

The true Orthodox way..people aren't concerned about what other people think when one practices his/her Christian piety...like bowing, crossing oneself 5 times or whatever...just as the Holy Spirit prompt them to do it.

I've seen some people in K.C. in the Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic churches...do that. As well as ours. I've seen some Melkites do it a lot also.

Oh well...it's just fun to amuse the Roman Catholic visitors! Just to get a look from them is just fun! Hee hee.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

At an OCA parish I used to belong to the laity would do a prostration at "Amen Amen Amen" during the Liturgy, even on Sunday mornings. Just what is the origin of that?

Michael

We have been taught, up here in the Pacific Northwest, by Mitred Archpriest Josef the practice of touching the floor while blessing ourselves when entering and leaving the Holy Temple, before kissing the icon on the tetrapod, and before we receive the Eucharist. My recollection also says that it is done as Alex has stated. "This is the traditional way to perform a "metanoia' from the waist." It is a very beautiful way to humble ourselves in the presence of God.

This is when we do it too, but also at the preface ( Достойно и праведно есть ) each set of the words of institution and at "Тебе поем'ъ, anticipating the epiklesis the priest prays quietly while the choir sings.

We also do a lot of prostrations especially during Great Lent...during the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.

Yes, full prostrations on weekdays.

At an OCA parish I used to belong to the laity would do a prostration at "Amen Amen Amen" during the Liturgy, even on Sunday mornings. Just what is the origin of that?

Probably taken from what the deacon does in the altar at that point. In churches where the anaphora is all aloud, I've heard congregations say the deacon's usual responses at this point, including the "Amen, amen, amen'. It makes sense to bow then.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

The triple amen is after the epiclesis, which follows the words of institution at the consecration.

The epiclesis part is important because in Orthodox thought it is when the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ, being changed when the priest prays "effecting the change with Thy Holy Spirit. Amen Amen Amen".

As pertains tuching the floor during a Metanie, I saw it last night at Compline with the GOA mission here. So some Greek Orthodox do it as well. There came up a question afterwards, what is the relation between the words metanoia and metanie? Could anyone help?

The Melkites do this as well...

Edward, deacon and sinner