www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology I like pews . . .

Oh definately Cups *quickly glances around room looking for a hidden camera*

Dan,

No, one does not have to process outside. Unless, the architect or planners were so dumb as to set all of the rows of pews to be right up to the iconostasis, and have them against the walls with no aisles, it can be done. If they are installed as I just outlined, then I would believe the church would be in violation of fire and safety laws, and ADA requirements. It would also show extremely poor planning and judgement on the part of the congegration, clergy, and hierarch when they approved such a configuration when it was installed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I've read the comments posted here, and I have thought on them, but I find most of the arguments in favor of getting rid of pews to be unpersuasive to me.

I think the benchmark for the practices of our faith is whether it helps us in our eternal salvation, starting now and foretasting forever. And I really don't see how pews impede that or further that.

About the only impediment that pews can offer seems to be impeding doing a full prostration. But, I haven't seen anyone do a full prostration -- getting down on the floor and touching their heads to the ground-- in any of the Eastern Christian Churches I have visited.

That includes my Byzantine Catholic parish, and it includes Orthodox Churches in the U.S. (OCA, Antiochian, Greek) and even a couple of Bulgarian Orthodox Churches in Bulgaria that I visited. Maybe I visited these places on the wrong day, but I never saw a full prostration. The most physical sign of reverence I saw was bowing while making the sign of the Cross.

The closest thing I saw to a prostration was when the people of my parish knelt and then shuffled on their knees toward a copy of the Shroud to venerate it (and, hence, Jesus) on Good Friday.

The presence of pews in most of these churches (there were no pews in the two churches I visited in Bulgaria) didn�t seem at all to impede people's belief in the Gospel or their identity as Eastern Christians. Instead, the pews seemed to be only comfortable and convenient places for people to sit.

When I think about the Gospel, I don't see reference to pews. I see, however, a whole lot of references by Jesus Christ on keeping the commandments and practicing the virtues and faithfully following the will and love of God: directly and towards the neighbor. Holiness (theosis) is what seems to really matter. I wish that we would emphasize holiness at least as much as, and preferably more than, pews or other external things of religion.

-- John

John,

Why do you think our practices are disconnected from our holiness? How do you think we could possibly live out our holiness without our practices?

CDL

Sorry John, looks like you will have to take a seat over to the side. The lazy lot will have to get off their 'wots its' and stand. They have all gone soft. Some, to quote a monk now in heaven, think they are going to go to heaven in a motor car. Imagine the constination when the seating was put into churches. Probably said at the time to be the start of the slippy slope to ruin etc etc. Where they right or were they right.

Yes, certainly theosis is the goal of us all. But John, speaking of the "external things", a gentle reminder that it was you who started this thread, no one else. While a "kneeeler" is certainly not mentioned, there are examples in Scripture regarding prostrations.

Did you expect to not have any responses? If it is so external why did you start the discussion? It seems you are as concerned about having them (I assume that is why you started this) as the underlying insinuation about the others who want to get rid of them. Why didn't you just say the concern for holiness at the beginning?

I also wish we would emphasize holiness as well and not start these kind of discussions if at the end they lead to some kind of subjective judgement over those who disagree.

While I appreciate your concern about holiness, I also hope a sense of charity is present for all those who wish to pray according to other ways in accord with our holy Tradition. I remain as unconvinced that they are needed outside of perimeter benches around the walls for the sick and infirm to use if needed (as is still the case in many places outside of the US).

This is for each praying community and their shepherds to decide, and not posters. In the end, however, if it leads to a greater liturgical experience (as has absolutely been our experience with removing the pews), then indeed it has been something to increase holiness and foster theosis.
FDD

Dan, clearly external practices are important; they shape how we pray and how we live the Life in Christ. But, I don't think they are the most important thing. I think they are only tools.

FDD, I started this thread because I see a lot of side comments about being against pews on this Forum . . . as if it were some kind of secret code for the in crowd to identify themselves. And I wanted to bring it out into the open. I also brought it up because I am fed up with people endlessly debating the externals of religion --pews, a curtain, opening and closing doors, a new translation of the Divine Liturgy-- when all of that stuff seems to pale in importance with trying to live the Gospel and a life of grace in our hearts. The externals are important, but only as a tool for living the life in Christ. But, back to pews, I was generally curious and annoyed with the issue because, after the translation of the Liturgy, pews seem to be the one of biggest sources of irritation or criticism at this Forum; and I was curious enough and annoyed enough to probe the issue and see why.

Pavel, I'm about to get into my "motor car" and drive to Divine Liturgy. Does that count ?

-- John

First of all, this discussion is not new - there have been posts on and off at least the entire time I have been here - no one has tried to hide their identity in those discussions to my recollection. I'm not getting your insinuation.

Secondly, I am not comfortable with your insinuation regarding an "in" crowd, as there is an underlying allegation of elitism whether or not you intended it that way. If having a different opinion is elitism everyone is guilty. Speaking of "open" why don't you explain who the "in" crowd are?

Thirdly a new translation is absolutely not an external thing. It is the very heart of our lex orandi. Regarding "externals" - every external in liturgy is iconic and symbolic of a deeper reality, for that matter. Certainly some have a more profound and necessary place than others. And now I have to run off to Matins and Divine Liturgy.
FDD

Hi John!

a couple points I could respond to:
re
in my post I wasn't just talking about full prostrations. I was mostly talking about the "Small Reverence". With pews I have trouble with making even the "SMALL reverence", i.e. Sign of the Cross plus the bow.

E.g. the pew in front get's in the way of my hand - both when it's going up and coming down. The pew also gets in the way of the bow. The most I can practically manage is to bow only my head (from my neck) and scrunch my shoulders (as opposed to bow from the waist, which gives the full effect of the prayer mode).

So after a while, in churches with pews, I either give up making reverences (which significantly takes away from my experience of worshipping God) or I get out of the pew to pray.

What I said about the Small Reverence, goes 3x for the .... (I'm not sure what to call them) ...the "Middle Reverence" (you know, the sign of the Cross, plus touching one's hand on the ground). That's impossible standing in a pew. (Unless one does it to the side, and having tried that, it just doesn't work (at least for me)). Plus, again, one often can hit one's shoulder or elbow, even doing this weird off to the side version of the "middle" reverence.

Re the Full Prostration, yeah, it's not done on Sundays in general. But doesn't your Church do it during the Presanctified Litury? Or (and esp.) the Great Canon of St. Andrew? Or those Fast/Feasts of the Holy Cross?

Thanks for raising the issue.

Herb

Upon reflection and prayer, I have to say that I agree with you in these points, especially the last paragraph. I'm sorry if I offended you, and I apologize for losing my temper.

-- John

You know I have read this thread with great interest

I remember many of the threads before about should we have them , should we not have them -and I remember comments about Ilya and his little saw and how he could make useful things out of unused pews [ hint - could we have some Chanters stand in Lourdes please - they would be accepted with great pleasure and would be well used ]

I sort of have had it imprinted on me that we stand - and as a result I do. Now it's easy in Lourdes - we have wee benches round the walls as well as folding chairs for visitors - I always stand there , and park my stuff on a banch behind me. This actually makes it easy to bow when necessary . I have tried to make prostrations but these old bones just do not fold easily .

Now in Edinburgh we have pews - and I really do feel hemmed in - but I'm stuck with them - so I just have to do the best I can. I still stand and it has to be admitted I'm one of the few that do - the others are the old brigade - the older men - who speak nothing but Ukrainian.

Despite all this - we all get on - and I have to admit that Byzcath , and folk like Alex and my GodPapa have managed to imprint various traditions on me - and I do hold to these.

I wonder if what is missing is teaching ?? It seems to be taken for granted that we know what to do - but with all the 'incomers' [ how on earth can I say that ??? I'm one of them ] maybe it's time for solid teaching , by the Priest - and in English too so there is no misunderstanding

Mebbe we should go with the flow ?

Did you know that the expression "the weakest go to the wall" refers to the fact that there were at one time no seats as such in any church, but there was a wide ledge along the walls at a convenient height which old or infirm worshippers could rest on? You can see the arrangement, among other places, in the great basilicas in Rome, where, however, chairs are put out nowadays for Mass.
Even after the Reformation there were no pews even in Protestant churches (at least in Scotland) but people brought stools to sit on. When King Charles I forced an Anglican liturgy on the Calvinists, there was a riot in St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, with the stools being thrown about by irate women.
There doesn't seem to be any actual requirement to have pews even among the Latins, but I'm glad liturgical differences can now be debated without furniture flying!