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#47776 01/16/03 01:55 AM
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Dear distinguished members of this forum, I have a request. Can any of you provide some input based on patristic tradition etc etc. on the use of head coverings for women in church? There is a trend beginning in our parish and I would like to help the momentum by providing some of the more skeptical yet curious women with authoritative or at least compelling information that might help them in their dicernment and return to a more traditional external expression of their faith. Thanks all.

#47777 01/16/03 06:36 AM
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GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Anthansius wrote:"Can any of you provide some input based on patristic tradition etc etc. on the use of head coverings for women in church?"

I don't think it's so much "patristic tradition" as much as a cultural tradition.

What a woman wore on her head depended on where she lived, not only what country but what part of the village. Not to mention her position within the village community.

Is the woman young or old?

Is she eligible for marriage?

Is she married? A widow?

Does she have children?

Does she have grandchildren?

ALL of these questions need to be answered in order to determine the "correct" head-covering for a woman.

Just some of my thoughts....

mark


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#47778 01/16/03 08:40 AM
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Dear Friends,

Yes, it is a cultural tradition for women to top their heads with something.

It would be wrong for them to come to church "topless."

Alex

#47779 01/16/03 09:12 AM
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Doesn't St Paul say something about women covering their heads while at prayer in one of his epistles?

Alex...you are too funny! LOL

#47780 01/16/03 03:04 PM
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Any info you would provide should filter down through other women. Since it is a "cultural thing" as Medved suggests I would just let it evolve on it's own. We are in a diffrent time and place, women might resent a man encouraging that.
We have women that cover their heads and those who don't(which I am one of) we (the women of our community)aren't engrossed by the matter.The priority should be to make sure these young ladies were well versed in their faith. If you want to encourage something for everyone's well being in your parish why don't you encourage the elderly men who don't bathe regularly to bathe before they come to Liturgy?

Nicky's Baba

#47781 01/16/03 08:34 PM
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Dear Athanasius,
Not too long ago a women told me that the reason that she covered her head while in church was because it was symbolic of her " freedom ". Her freedom to be respectful towards God and also submissive to God. No one was forcing her to cover her head but she did so anyhow, willingly. She also said that her husband had wished her to cover her head as he felt it to be a more polite attire while in church. I don't totally agree with his comparision but he compared it to when a women enters a room a man should stand, not necessary that he does but it is a extremely
polite gesture ( most women today would not know why he was standing , although I bet the most liberated of women would appreciate the show of repect if they did )
There is nothing about patristics in the above, just sharing some info.
Wonder why the Queen of England covers her head in church ? Probably style ? tradition ? culture?

#47782 01/17/03 12:59 AM
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To get a woman's perspective I asked my wife, who does cover her head at all liturgical functions even though I have never demanded she do so. She mentioned these two things: (1) she referred me to 1 Corinthians 11; and (2) she reminded me that all icons of the Most Holy Theotokos have her head covered, and as she is the New Eve and thus the prototype for all women, notice should be made of her example.

#47783 01/17/03 01:15 AM
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Thank you dear members. To contribute to this discussion, I would like to suggest that women consider a head covering as "liturgical attire" something like a vestment for serving. Just like nuns say a prayer whilst they don their head coverings, so can our lay women. I can say that personally, I have had occasion where I have been distracted by the beauty of a woman's hair. It is a travesty in this country that a by-product of women's liberation is a lack of understanding and empathy for the male disposition. Men are visually stimulated and a woman's head covering and overall modesty is not only for their own spiritual benefit but the benefit of all the community and assisting the men in "setting aside all earthly cares". Coments anyone?

#47784 01/17/03 01:51 AM
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Well, Athanasius......

I would say that it is the man's responsibility to keep his eyes and mind on the Liturgy! smile Don't blame women or "these liberated women" for one's own lack of attention. That should be part of one's preparation (now ,I sound like Pollyanna smile Don't mean to!)
Most of the women in my OCA parish do not use head coverings, some do, and I don't see any real distraction caused.

Peace,
Brian in Sacramento

#47785 01/17/03 04:36 AM
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In the Old Rite tradition attire for liturgy has implications for all, not just the ladies.

Our attire for Church stresses the other-ness of the house of God.

We make the entrance prayers to stress that we are entering sacred space. Yes, the temple has an earthly aspect, but also a heavenly one. It is like Bethel, the place were earth and heaven meet.
We speak of laying aside earthly cares in the words of the cherubic hymn, but we also seek to do this before we enter the household of God. Equally, our outward attire is, to a certain extent, an indication of this.

This is partly a socio-ethnic thing, but it is also full of religious meaning.

The wearing of the kaftan/khalat or sarafan shows that as we approach God we have turned our attention away from everyday things, to enter into the worship of heaven. We have left aside all earthly cares... hopefully and raised our minds to heavenly things.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

#47786 01/17/03 06:50 AM
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Athanasius wrote:"...I can say that personally, I have had occasion where I have been distracted by the beauty of a woman's hair..."

For me, it's been the exact opposite.

The woman who CONSTANTLY wraps the headscarf around her neck and shoulders 'cause it keeps falling off when she does her prostations after blessing herself.

The woman wears the hat that's so big, she can't recieve the Holy Eucharist 'cause she can't tilt her head back without it falling off.

The woman who keeps adjusting her scarf 'cause she's just not comfortable with her infant pulling on it.

Personally, I'd rather they come to Divine Liturgy un-covered and not disturb me and my prayers by all this un-necessary movement.

JMHO....

mark


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#47787 01/17/03 08:16 AM
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There seem to be two parts to St. Paul's reasoning in the 1st Corinthians 11 passage.

While the "...as a sign of authority" part may be a cultural argument for women to cover their heads, the following phrase, "and because of the angels" might indicate a less-temporal line of thought. Could something so seemingly banal have significance in the invisible realm?

#47788 01/17/03 10:02 AM
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Many of the reasons for covering one's head that have been laid out by others here are the reasons why I, myself, cover my own head.

Regarding Mark's frustration with fidgeting with one's head covering, I can understand and relate, not only from being a bystander, but from being a fidgeter at times in the past myself. When it was my own head covering that was the issue, I endeavored to find a different way (outside Liturgy) to keep the covering in place so that it would not be an source of distraction to myself or to others during the Divine Liturgy. There have been times when I've had to switch to another covering because a given one just wasn't "working." If the head covering is too much of a distraction for oneself and others, alternatives should be sought, and if *necessary*, go uncovered, yet with the "disposition" of being covered. I run into many devout Jews on a regular basis, and those women certainly manage to find head coverings that stay on their heads all the time; so, I'm sure properly "fitting" coverings *can* be found.

Kelly

#47789 01/17/03 10:24 AM
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It's sad that most women in the Byzantine Catholic Church do not cover their heads anymore. It has always been the custom in the Greek Catholic countries of Eastern Europe for "married" women to cover their heads, no matter what age. I remember my last trip to Transcarpathia and attending Divine Liturgy on Pentecost Sunday. The parishioners were processing around the church and all the "married" women had "babushka's" on their heads. Even my cousin Nadia, who was only in her early 30's had a "babushka" on and it made her look like a "Stara Baba"! Headcoverings for women here in America have gone the wayside because nobody thinks it chic to cover their heads. It is a nice gesture today if women would be obedient and follow this custom which goes back to the Hebrew tradition.

Ung-Certez wink

#47790 01/17/03 10:44 AM
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Kelly,

I've always seen it as a mark of the good Lord's sense of humor that He gave me an eye for pretty hats & shoes, as well as a huge head and D-width feet, LOL.

I usually wear schmattes that I make myself - because bandanas are not sized for Giant Heads, and most scarves they sell are too slick to stay on a human head without recourse to Super Glue. Also, as a cantor, I stand in a fairly cramped area with two other people, so hats with big ol' brims are out - even if I could find them big enough. (One of my most precious possessions is a very looooong, plain Victorian hatpin - I don't know how human women keep hats on their heads without 'em.) I also grew up in a synagogue where hats seemed less a mark of respect than a fashion statement - and I wrestle enough with pride without THAT thrown in the mix. I save the big hats for Uniontown - then they keep the sun off.

I've never been one for mantillas - they remind me too much of playing "bride" in the curtains as a kid, and the wretched things WON'T stay on without thumbtacks.

I like my plain old poly-cotton voile schmattes. They cram ino a pocket, go into the washer & dryer, and I can tie 'em on in a way that's reasonably secure & (mostly) out of reach of baby hands. But not everybody sews.

Just my two shekels...

Sharon

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