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Dear Ung,

I agree with what you are aiming for. But aren't those goals shared broadly? Aren't they what motivated the recruiting of Professor Thompson? Aren't they what is driving his work and the work of the liturgical music commision mentioned in the posted Van Nuys newsletter?

I did not miss that point. I specifically noted that more flexibility would be required in such parishes.

The musicological similarities, whatever that might precisely entail, are not as interesting, IMO, as that sense of ownership that I was talking about - which makes the music itself and the chanting, in an exquisitely intimate way, the work of the people.

I would also point out the success of the OCA musically with the work of Dr. Drillock and others who have done a tremendous job not focusing on only one chant subtradition and singling it out for "preservation", but have made a much larger Byzantine-Slavic chant tradition available, including Carpatho-Russian, Bulgarian, Znamenny, etc.

Some of the growing Orthodox jurisdictions have been more inclusive musically, not by setting liturgical texts to Western ditties outside of the tradition but rather by exposing the faithful to the riches of other chant traditions.

The OCA, as you pointed out on another thread, is the exemplar of "mixed" traditions. In that sense the situation is different than the BCC. Is it not fair to say, moreover, there there is indeed some singling out of the Russian tradition in the territorial dioceses?

Finally there is a difference in perspective associated with their use of choirs to "expose" various chant traditions ot the congregation, and our use of congregational singing, which really requires familiarity with a specific repetoire.

When there are Bulgarian, Romanian and Albanian dioceses within the OCA, I would tend to disagree with your last statement.

And, as I mentioned considering the present makeup of Midwest and West parishes, where anyone of direct original Rusyn ancestry may be a small or non-existent minority, I don't think it is all that different at all from the situation with some OCA parishes.

It really varies from parish to parish, as even some of the former Galician and Rusyn parishes which ended up in the OCA have kept their previous musical traditions. In general I think the OCA has shied away from "official" musical promulgations precisely because of the musical diversity not only between dioceses but between parishes.

But then again, with anything Byzantine, don't things to a great extent vary from parish to parish?

Sorry, I edited while you were responding; my "last" statement was about territorial diocese, which means in the OCA those that are identified by geography rather than ethnicity (Albanian, Rumanian,...).

If the hierarchy of the Ruthenian Metropolia desires to save the Plainchant tradition, why have they turned a deaf ear to cantors who teach extensive repetoire of Prostopinije?. Why have they not asked experienced cantors such as Jerry Jumba and John Vernoski for their imput? I'm not slighting John Thompson for his work. I just would like to know why many other educated cantors are not asked to paticipate in the liturgical training of future cantors. It comes down to the hierarchy not repecting the important role of the parish cantor. How many parishes even actually pay their cantors? Everyone seems to think we can get by with volunteer cantoring. Until our hierarchy make a major effort (which means spending money) in the training of future cantors, our Plainchant tradition will not survive.

Ung-Certez

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Ung, I for one, would like to know what happened to the thousands and thousands of hours of tape that Jerry Jumba made of our cantors from various parishes around the country.

He had recorded hundreds of melodies that were unique to Ruthenian Plainchant.

Is this all gone forever???



mark

Mark, I wholeheartedly agree. The VERY BEST propstopinje self-training tape I ever heard was one handed to me of Jerry solo with some valuable interspersed explanations, some of them approaching anecdotal notes which made them even more endearing.

Unfortunately my tapes have disappeared a long time ago, victims of overplaying and cannbilistic tape machines.

Ung's point about support are also very poignant. After nearly 20 years of cantoring in both UGCC and BCC parishes, usually the only time I ever got paid was funerals or weddings, and then by the families and not the parish involved. I'm sure this is a similar experience to many diaki in the USA of either church.

In the villages, of whatever mixed Carpathian chant tradition, the diaki were very well respected, sometimes even more than the clergy.

RC "music ministers" are almost always compensated for their efforts in leading and coordinating liturgical music.

HUH ??

Not here they ain't us poor folk are all unpaid volunteers [ I'm just choir - but we do see our Choir Mistress gets a wee minding every Christmas and Easter for all her work with us. All the organist gets is an official key to the Organ Loft !

Diak, "Amin", you're preaching to the "chor" on that issue. Why buy the "korova" when the "moloko" is free? Until financial resources are spent on both cantorial training and on salaries for cantors, Plainchant won't survive.

Ung-Certez

Great questions. My guess is that to make progress swifter and to avoid feuds over artistic differences it is considered important to keep the committee fairly small (three cantors, Bishop Andrew, and Father Pipta are listed in the Van Nuys newsletter.) But if this committee doesn't get much broader input, then they are wasting their time. What Mark mentions about the work of Jerry Jumba is very important. Like Bokshaj he investigated the grassroots practice; a top-down approach that is not informed by that practice cannot hope to correct, regularize, or elaborate it. Unless it is all as smooth as silk, it will just be ignored. I hope that this mistake is avoided.

With the coming of the internet, there are so many things now possible to improve our music. I am hopeful that there will emerge from this committee a website wthat will allow for an exchange of musical renderings. Father Sloan Rolando's choir practice site is a good example of possibilities (his dreadful four-part renderings of Carpatho-Rusyn prostopinije, however, make me cringe). There is another site from an OCA parish in Texas that has even worse settings, but nevertheless still shows how it is possible to use the internet effectively. And Mark's parish also sets a fine example.

The "new" music has been discussed here already some time ago. Why is it not on the internet?

Ah, here is the real complaint. It's not that the hierarchs have not done anything, but that the "right" people have not been "consulted". Whenever a descision has to be made, someone is always going to be unhappy or dissatified. Outside of Professor Thompson, I do not know the other two cantors from Parma or Passaic, but I'm quite sure they are accomplished cantors in their respective eparchies. Fr Robert Pipta, in addition to being raised in the Painchant of the Byzantine Church (his father is a cantor), studied music prior to entering the seminary. In my unlearned opinion, I think it unfair to slam a prudential judgement because the "right" persons are not involved.

When the Metropolia turns away educated cantors who have taught and completed intense research of Plainchant for over 25 years, it seems to be a deliberate plan. When Byzantine Catholic cantors who are forced to look for cantoring positions among our sister Orthodox parishes because the Metropolia doesn't want to pay them, I think it makes our hiearchy look bad. It seems over the last decade we have been our own worst enemies.
I believe the hierarchy isn't interested in preseving Plainchant,even in English. I think the hierarchy wants newer, non-ethnic liturgical music in order not to be labeled as an "ethnic church". I don't think this is the way for our Church to survive. We will lose a lot more members when we no longer care to perpetuate our Plainchant.

Ung-Certez

Yup,

Everything is a conspiracy, no room for the emotions, politics and such! We who are the metropolia are the ones to blame. How many parishes insist on stations of the cross, rosaries and such. While "the Metropolia" is attempting to change and correct things, there has been much resistance from within. Complaints of this 'new' music is too hard to sing when it is really the same notes our ancestors used only fuel such resistance. The metropolia gets their money through US. WE must be willing to pay. It is not US vs THEM.

You seem to be set on seeing only the negative side of the issue. Have you been to the seminary cantor school? have you seen the material? I have.

See my original response to you on page 2 prior to the DJS/DIAK conversation.

I think Deacon John Montalvo hit the issue on the head.

Steve