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The post about the Beatitudes made may start thinking about seating. In the USA are there any parishes in the Byzantine Catholic tradition - or Ukrainian Orthodox for that matter - who have open Churches.

I think that the provision of Western style seating can unknowingly change our attitude and understanding of Liturgy, fixing us to the spot in what should be a service full of movement.

When I take my pupils to the Greek Cathedral in London once a term, it feels very strange being imprisoned inpews. In fact, I know of one Russian Orthodox man who was told to take a seat or leave. It was so alien to him, and such a shock that he did leave.

Opinions... ?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Here in Ontario, Canada, there's one Ukranian Catholic church with no pews that I know of. I'm pretty sure this is the church I'm thinking of, but I could be wrong http://www.infoukes.com/culture/architecture/st_elias/

Dear Fr Mark,

Bless me a sinner.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Not only does having pews imprison us, but since we have them, we have to use them. This leads to the intoduction of all sorts strange and alien postures in worship. When I am among the laos for Liturgy or some other service, I feel like a yo-yo-stand, sit, stand, sit, stand, kneel (ugh), stand, sit, stand, ad finitum ad na.... No where are we even permitted to make a Great Poklon. It is difficult to make even a Small Poklon (that hand can get mighty sore after banging on the seat in front of you a few times).

I once went to a protestant service (recently, as Liturgy was late, and i was curious), and I understood intimately why protestants must have pews, even padded ones. They just sit there for two hours (at this particular congregation they did), like bumps on a log. The central portion of their service is the sermon, which can last for anywhere between 45 minutes and pertin near forever (as they say). But our Liturgy is not about talked at, but is about our life in Christ. Fr Robert Taft makes a comment about Liturgy being a sort of summation of our whole life, of God coming to us, and we going to Him. There is a lot of motion in living, coming and going, and Liturgy is a reflection of this.

Kissing your right hand,
Adam

St Elias in Brampton is such a model of Eastern Christian praxis across the board!!!!

Dear Adam,

May the All-Merciful Lord bless you.

I haven't even begun to think about many of the restrictions imposed by pews.

The poklon is a good example.

What happens during Lent? How can one go through the prayer of St Ephrem without the prostrations and bows?

What happens on Trinity-Pentecost during the kneeling prayers of vespers?

These pews directly undermine the Byzantine way of prayer and worship. They imprison the congregation as passive onlookers in what is meant to be THEIR liturgy - the offering of the whole laos - the people of God. They also introduce a 'them and us' feeling which can easily lead to clericalism - not impsed by our priests, but in the laity's perception.

The same undermining of our understanding of worship, and what we do in worship, arises from choirs stuck up in choir lofts, well away from the 'people'.

These issues need to be considered very seriously, if worship is taken seriously.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.

I found the proper webpage of that church in Brampton: http://www.saintelias.com/

Dear Father Mark,

I ask your blessing.

Having grown up in GO churches here in the U.S., I am a bit embarassed to say, but I don't know anything but pews.

I know, I know, this is not traditional, but if you are used to them, it is somewhat scary to think of standing for an hour and a half.

I am embarassed to say that when recently visiting a major U.S. city, my husband and I had a choice to attend the Greek cathedral (with pews) or the OCA cathedral (without pews), and because I was run down with a cold, and even though I really wanted to attend the OCA cathedral (in the spirit of pan-Orthodoxy), my fear won out, and we went to the Greek church.

Please tell me, is it hard to stand for all that time? I once stood for two hours at a particularly long Archiepiscopal liturgy, and I thought, "wow, this is really doing penance"..my legs and feet were killing me! I have also visited Greece where there are no pews, and found it difficult..Am I just beyond sinfully pathetic and lazy, or is this really something one needs to condition themselves to?

In Christ,
Alice

Alice, in churches without pews there are uusally benches along the walls to rest if you need to. There is nothing wrong with that if you have to sit down (nobody wants you to pass out, you know. )

Actually there are specific times appointed for sitting during services also. During Vespers or Matins if the Kathisma (the portions of the Psalter) are read even in the most strict monastery everyone sits. Kathisma itself means "sitting" or "while seated". During the Epistle everyone also sits, and at other times such as the reading of the Synaxarion and other occasions.

And you are right, Alice, I have also been to many Greek Orthodox churches in the US and have yet to find one without pews. Same for the Serbian Orthodox.

I've never been to a church without pews... In such a church do people still sit during the epistles, synaxarium, etc? If so, how? Just on the floor?

In My OCA parish we stand for everything except the Sermon and the Announcements and then people sit either on the benches on the periphery or on the floor. It is a very homey sort of feeling and rather like Kindergarten But of course, when we are standing we are making the Sign of the Cross, poklons, lighting candles etc.

I cannot tell you how more free in worship I feel without pews there "boxing us in"

Well, when my health permits and I am able to attend services at St. Ann's, I prefer to stand in the back of the church where there is space for bowing (and prostrations, on appropriate days). Plus I don't wish to make my humble attempts at devotion into a public spectacle.

But I haven't been able to be there lately, like, since last May , so my worship has been confined to morning and evening prayers, with prostrations as defined by Russian Orthodox usage. And some other assorted services adapted to "reader" form. And the Jesus Prayer, naturally.

If you would, please pray that it might be possible that by God's mercy and the intercession of the most-holy Theotokos I could be able to attend services for Passion (Palm) Sunday, for Holy and Great Friday, and for the Resurrection on Pascha. I just have a terrible time do to my anxiety disorder and the fact that even though St. Ann's is like 20 minutes away I have not been able to go half that distance. But let me tell you, when I step inside the doors of St. Ann's, it seems like all my anxieties vanish and I truly feel the presence of the Lord, the Theotokos, and all the angels and saints. Of course it is also very humbling for me, poor sinner that I am. I just do not want to spend another Pascha isolated here at home with no way to attend or listen to services. I know this is somewhat off-topic and probably in some ways belongs more to the "Prayer" section, but I hope I will find your forgiveness and prayers nonetheless. Please, please, remember the servant of God Timothy in your prayers, and especially the intention that I mentioned above.

Gospodi Iisuse Khriste syne Bozhiy pomiluy mya greshnago!

Domine Jesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei peccatoris!

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!

Humbly yours in Christ,

Timofey, rab' Bozhiy (Timothy, servant of God)

Well, currently in our little church we have pews. However, we are working on building our new church. We are all payed off, the current church and rectory. The new church is tentatively slated to have like a third of the nave with pews toward the front, for the elderly. The center and back of the nave will be open for standing. In this way, we accomodate the elderly yet send a clear message about the orthodox tradition. Hopefully over time, we may even remove those front pews and simply line the perimiter with the pews.

Pews are very common in Greek parishes, I think everywhere. As the normal usage was to stand up all time there are no old directives about this as those of the Romans, when it's more and less defined when they stand up, when they sit and when they kneel. The thing is that if there are pews, it would be convenient for Orthodox Bishops to establish common rules so that people know when to sit and when to stand up (the parts of the liturgy).

The Melkite parish I attend has pews, but there is a lot of standing.

We stand through out Vespers and, during Lent, the Akathist to the Mother of God. I also seem to remember that we stand for most, if not all, of Presanctified.

During the Divine Liturgy, we stand at the beginning, sitting down when the deacon comes out for the first litany. We stand for the Little Entrance and do not sit again until the reading of the Epistle. We stand for the Gospel and sit for the Homily. We stand from the Great Entrance until the End of the Liturgy.

David

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

You mentioned that pews may impact "poklony."

I've grown up in churches with pews all my life.

Father, what are "Poklony?"

Alex