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#50572 11/05/06 09:32 PM
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And consciences can be wrong.
Stephanos I
So maybe we should start a new thread: "Can we infallibly know God's truth or are we at our own and other's whims?"

#50573 11/05/06 10:11 PM
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The Syriac Patriarch of Antioch Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas calls himself the Supreme Pontiff, not the first of all equals.

The Popes over the years have made many untactful decisions concerning the Eastern Churches, however this happened it is wrong that it did and something mut be done to assure it does not happen again, although it probably is even now happening!

Does this mean something is wrong with Papal Supremacy? Perhaps it does. I just dont know. The point is that something is wrong with the Roman Churches position towards the East...and it has to be fixed.

Even on All Saints Day I have to hear Fr. Jack Lombardi talk about how the Roman Catholics should be recognized as an official Church in Greece.
When Roman Catholics have the whole world at our disposal and YET we STILL want to get "the royal treatment" in Greece! What's wrong, aren't the Orthodox Churches good enough for us??

The only country that is trying to preserve Orthodoxy... And we cant even respect this...It troubles me so much. Do we want our Bob Dylan guitar players to be recognized as cantors or something?

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=97422
(how trustworthy is a regnum christi news service I wonder!)

#50574 11/05/06 10:22 PM
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Father Stephanos,

I believe that you are a convert also as has bene indicated by your earlier posts in other threads. Was that by truth or by whim? Instead of wishing some well in their journey, you seem to be making veiled attacks and passing judgement of these posters and their motivation for seeking outside of the communion of Rome. You may not know what pain and soul searching they may have encountered in arriving at their decisions. All you are doing is to help sow the seeds of animosity and bitterness for where they have been, and that in itself will come back to haunt at some future time.

We have posters cross both ways on this forum from Catholic to Orthodox and from Orthodox to Catholic. Seemingly it is only those for whatever reason that turn to the Orthodox Church that you seem to pass veiled and snide remarks to and pass judgement on. I wish all well no matter which way they cross of that particular line, as long as they have the peace of God in themselves and that they can continue on their path towards salvation.

I have pointed this out to in the past to you, but you seem to persist. For one that is a convert, you seem to forget that by attacking those that are in process of converting and their motivations, you are also attacking yourself. For what arguments you seem to have and by making these remarks, the same can be applied to your own situation.

If this is your own prejudice, fine I suggest you keep it to yourself, because it is defintely appears to be uncharitable as much you try to make it look like it is charitable. If you can not be charitable than I going to insist that you refrain from posting. Just by your past two posts here, you have cause pain to the posters that have revealed by mustering up courage their convictions in sincerity in taking a step towards being honest with us. Never in any of the posts did these posters state it was how they felt all should feel and should be doing.

By way of this post I am no longer calling you into account, but let this now serve as an offical warning.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
#50575 11/05/06 10:34 PM
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Cristoir,

I'll remember that the next time the Pope of Rome donates a Latin parish for the use of the Orthodox congregations of Rome.

Catholics in Greece may not approach the chalice in Orthodox churches without first renouncing their communion with Rome. That is not Roman policy, it is Orthodox policy. Would you force them to renounce a matter of conscience - full unity with the Successor of Peter - to receive the Sacred Mysteries? Ergo, these people need proper pastoral care and the freedom to provide/receive it from their hierarchs and priests without any legal restrictions. So it is a simple choice - violate conscience, stay and go hungry or leave.

Not sure what you are referring to as far as Rome's positions vis-a-vis the East. Since the time of Blessed John XXIII I thought the Popes of Rome have bent over backwards to establish rapproachment with the Orthodox East.

And not to throw salt on an old wound, but it was not Blessed John Paul the Great who refused to come to Russia to personally return the icon of Our Lady of Kazan.

Bad behavior goes both ways. RC's, BC's and OC's have their share of blame for the current divisions between our churches. Not clear why you insist on finding fault exclusively with the Popes or with RC's. The spaces between all of our churches leave plenty of room for misunderstanding and biggotry. Which is why I believe we need to move closer together in faith and charity. I am hopeful that the work of the past several Pontiffs in close collaboration with the Orthodox hierarchy will help to "bridge" the gap so that we may all be one.

Gordo

#50576 11/05/06 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by Father Anthony:
Father Stephanos,

...We have posters cross both ways on this forum from Catholic to Orthodox and from Orthodox to Catholic......

In IC XC,
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As one who has suffered through this battle of conscience, I am inclined to agree with you, Father Anthony, even though I am far more sympathetic to remaining in full communion. I think if Father Stephanos wants to set up a debate on this topic and lay out the arguments for remaining in (or entering) full communion with Rome, he should do so. But we do not know the consciences of those who make this choice - that knowledge alone belongs to them and to God.

I thought this part of one of my earlier posts which was a quote from Bishop Thomas Olmstead was relevant:

Quote
What does it mean that Catholics should follow their conscience when making a moral decision?

Before following our conscience, we must form it in accord with the voice of God. Our conscience is not the origin of truth. Truth lies outside us; it exists independent of us and must be discovered through constant effort of mind and heart. This is no easy task for us who suffer the effects of original sin and must contend with the constant temptations of the devil. Conscience receives the truth revealed by God and discerns how to apply that truth to concrete circumstances.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1783) teaches, � Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-informed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings .�

As we see, to form one's own conscience well and to follow it with integrity is no small task. For a person's conscience cannot invent what is true and good. It must search it out beyond itself. When acting correctly, we discover the truth through the grace of the Holy Spirit and the help of God's word handed down to us in the Church. Then, when we submit our conscience to this objective truth, we act uprightly and grow to maturity in Christ.
God bless,

Gordo

#50577 11/05/06 11:40 PM
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Gordo,

Such a debate that you suggest is not what the initial poster to this thread asked, and if carried out is bringing this thread off topic into a possible polemical debate. The initial post was a matter of a couple simple questions asking if there were any finding themselves in a similar situation as to their own. I am addressing a longer standing matter as an administatrator of ByzCath to one poster that is attacking the faith of others which is in clear violation of the rules of this forum. Such conduct will not be tolerated on this forum, as one poster earlier this week found out by first being formally warned and still chose to continue their attacks. Because of their obstinency they lost posting rights permanently, just because they thought they were above the rules of this forum.

I am not here to debate the merits of being in communion with Rome or not. I have made my personal faith decision as have many others on this forum. I respect them for their decisions, whether Catholic or Orthodox. What I will not tolerate is uncharitable conduct however veiled or being deleiberately disrespsectful of another's faith and convictions. As I stated previously, this has been pointed out to the poster that has now been warned on earlier occasions.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
#50578 11/06/06 12:09 AM
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Father Anthony,

You have no argument from me here. When I referred to having Father Stephanos make his argument in favor of communion with Rome, I meant in a separate thread. Sorry for any confusion.

And my comments about being "far more sympathetic to being in full communion" were not made in reference to you, but rather in reference to those who posted about their anticipated change.

These are always delicate issues. I knew they would be when I saw the original posted question and the replies.

God bless,

Gordo

#50579 11/06/06 12:15 AM
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Gordo,

Such a thread as suggested, may be in violation of the rules of this forum, as it would most likely degrade into polemics and uncharitable conduct very quickly. My own personal view as to that type of thread, it would be intended to seperate and open many old wounds instead of fostering a spirit of learning, reconciliation and understanding that has been advocated by the respective church leaders.

I hope this draws this to an end, and I would like to direct posters as per FrDeaconEd to keep this thread on track.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
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Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
#50580 11/06/06 12:26 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
And consciences can be wrong.
Stephanos I
So maybe we should start a new thread: "Can we infallibly know God's truth or are we at our own and other's whims?"
Well, it was a great and venerable Roman Catholic Cardinal and theologian and one whose Cause has advanced to consdideration for Sainthood who wrote most eloquently on the Primacy of Conscience, John Henry Newman and he suffered calumny in his time for his views. Thank God, we have progressed

#50581 11/06/06 12:43 AM
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Fr. Anthony,

Thank you for your words of wisdom in this thread.

God bless,
Todd

#50582 11/06/06 12:47 AM
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Prayers for all our brethren embarking on their journey further towards Holy Orthodoxy.

#50583 11/06/06 07:35 AM
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If I have offended anyone by my posts I humbly appologize. It was certainly not my intent and I was not attacking, critizing or condemning anyone.
I was simply stating that we need to seek the Truth (where ever) it is found and once finding it we are bound in conscience to embrace it. That is all. And that as ebed melech said that we need to inform our consciences because they can be in error
(even mine.)
Stephanos I

#50584 11/06/06 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by JohnS.:
Prayers for all our brethren embarking on their journey further towards Holy Orthodoxy.
Sentiments I share as well as someone who already made this choice.

My prayers no matter what ultimately happens.

#50585 11/06/06 04:13 PM
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I have come to the conclusion, having grown up in a "mixed" household that He works fully through Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Individuals are drawn to traditions of worship or to a particular faith community, and that is okay with me as long as it is part of seeking Him and not seeking self interest. I think people come to these faiths honestly. I wouldn't have expected my old baba to become Catholic, no less than I'd have expected my old Irish grandma to become Orthodox. They were both filled with faith and really selfless women who went through a lot and gracefully with their faith to help them, but they were definitely from and drawn to different traditions and communities.

Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
People should seek the will of God and not their own pleasures of likes or dislikes and self interests.
Stephanos I

#50586 11/06/06 05:22 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Stephanos I:
And consciences can be wrong.
Stephanos I
So maybe we should start a new thread: "Can we infallibly know God's truth or are we at our own and other's whims?"
Father Stephanos,

I should have addressed you as Father Stephanos before. I apologize, I didn't know you were clergy. Peace in Christ,

Joe

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