www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Question About Quotes from Fathers

I have a question about some quotes from the Fathers, one in particular, which seem to disprove the authority of the Pope. Can anyone help me with it?

From St. Cyprian: "The other apostles certainly were just what Peter was, having the same honor and power as he. All are shepherds, and the flock nourished by all the Apostles together is one, in order that the Church of Christ may appear in its unity."

Thanks!

Like Scripture we have to be careful about taking quotes out of context.

Saint Cyprian of Carthage (died 258 AD) in his text "On the Unity of the Catholic Church" (De Ecclesiae Catholicae Unitate) affirms the collective authority of the bishops and also of the Pope as Bishop of Rome. St. Cyprian did have difficulty with the decision of Pope Stephen that those baptized by heretics are not to be re-baptized.

It is interesting that there are two versions of the fourth chapter of "On the Unity..." Scholars say that St. Cyprian revised this chapter. There is some disagreement as to why the chapter was revised.

In the text cited above, St. Cyprian says, in version one of chapter 4: "And He says to him again after the resurrection 'feed my sheep.' It is on him that He builds the Church, and to him that He entrusts the sheep to feed. And although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single Chair, thus establishing by His own authority, the source and hallmark of the [Church's] oness. No doubt the others were all tha Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is [thus] made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So to, even if they are all shepherds, we are shown but one flock with is to be fed by all the Apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"

In the second version, St Cyprian says: "...yet, in order that the oneness might be unmistakable, He established by His own authority a source for that oness having its origin in one man alone. No doubt the other Apostles were all that Peter was, endowed with equal dignity and power, but the start comes from him alone, in order to show that the Church of Christ is unique..."
It is

Also one must take into consideration that during the dispute with Pope St Stephen St Cyprian altered his ecclesiological ideas many times until ultimately conceeding to the Pontiff. Moreover, regardless of what St Cyprian said or didnt (though as I've just mentioned, he ultimately conceeded) say his voice is outweighed by the prior testimony of the earlier Fathers, Sts Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus of Lyon.

Both Sts Ignatius and Irenaeus, the former in his Epistle to the Romans, the latter in Adv.Her III.3.2 underscore the Primacy of the Roman Bishop. This is something that St Irenaeus doesnt even question in his dispute with Pope Victor (refer to Eusebius' ecclesiastical histories) unlike St Cyprian does in his dispute with Stephen. The antecedent tradition must and does take presidence, St Cyprian's ultimate reconciliation with Rome is testament to that.

Now then back into exile I go...

TTYL Byzcath

"Bye now and God love you"--Fulton J.Sheen

Welcome back Myles!

Thanks for all your replies! This is good to know.

Hello Myles. Good to hear from you again. For what it's worth, exile is not nearly as glorious as it's cracked up to be.

Another quote I question is one from St. Ambrose: "As soon as Peter heard these words, 'Whom say ye that I am?' remembering his place, he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honour; a primacy of faith, not of rank."

Also St. Augustine: "He had not," he says, "the primacy over the disciples (in discipulos) but among the disciples, (in discipulis.)

Can anyone help with these? Thanks!

Dear Drewmeister,

This should be interpreted in the same fashion as Luke 11:27-28 should be. Just as Our Lady's blessedness wasn't due to mere biological connection to Christ, but through her purity and perfection in serving Him; St. Peter's primacy was due to his Confession of Christ and faith in maintaining the confession, and never independent of it.

This seems like the best interpretation since, elsewhere, St. Ambrose says, "Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentaries on 12 of David's Psalms).

In another place, St. Ambrose says, "Peter is called the rock, because like an immoveable rock, he sustains the joints and mass of the entire Christian edifice" (Sermon 4 of commentary on Cornelius Lapide).

St. Ambrose would hardly have said these things if he was saying that St. Peter had no primacy, except that of pretty titles added in moments of hyperbole.

~

As for the quote by St. Augustine he was saying that St. Peter's real primacy was among the other bishops (collegiality), and not "above" them, per se. For just as Christ walked, talked, and lived among his disciples, while being the leader, his representative, the Pope, ought to do the same.

Pax tecum,

Adam