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Dear Daniel you said:

"But I showed you clearly that this was not true even of NYC in the 70s, that numerically the murder rate in Baghdad alone was ten times higher, and if one takes into account that Baghdad is smaller than New York, the statistical rate was even higher."

I say:

I was talking of a time in Iraq when the terrorist attacks were a lot less. Also I was speaking of Iraq as a whole, not of Baghdad, which we know does not have the population of NYC...so please stop spinning my words.

You said:

"I am not saying you are a liar, merely misinformed. It does appear to me that you begin with a conclusion and then attempt to find evidence to confirm that conclusion,"

I say:

Sorry, but I take everything I have heard and read throughout my many years, and form my own specific opinion determined by my own specific learning and experiences. If it happens to coincide with those of President Bush, then so be it.

You said:

"The idea that the insurgents are being paid by Hussein is a novel one; I haven't heard that.
The insurgents are largely Sunni, that much is true. What the percentage is of jihadists vs Saddam loyalists vs ordinary Iraqis fighting an invader is unknown, but the military has backed off the contention that it is primarily Baathists."

I say:

I doubt it is a novel idea. I'm sure many Iraqi's would agree with me. Sorry you can't see the logic within it... but then again not everyone is able to formulate their thoughts in an objective and constructive way. It's a gift!

You said:

"It is by no means obvious that the US is trying to defuse tensions between the Sunnis and Shia; many in Iraq blame the US for the bombing of the Shiite mosque."

I say:

No doubt! The Arabs have vivid imaginations...remember it was the Israeli's that ran the planes into the twin towers.

You said:

" I have wondered if civil war is not part of the American plan. At one point the Sunni and Shiia appeared to be uniting against the US. Now they are busy fighting each other..."

I say:

Yeah right! We're doing it so that we can keep our troops in Iraq and give the CNN and NY Times 'spinners' fuel. Bravo for that one!

Zenovia

But if you include Iraq as a whole the murder rate is even higher.
And it wasn't that long ago and I was using contemporary statistics. No doubt today, with the Iraqi civil war, it is even higher.
And if what I have seen is "objective and constructive" thinking, I will gladly pass.
And if the American goal is to solidify its dominance in the Middle East, as it certainly is [see the Project for the New American Century, an ideological think tank that included the leading architects of the Bush policy, which long ago sketched out the Big Plan] then it is in their interest to keep the Sunnis and Shiites feuding.
And it may not be paranoia to suspect an American or British hand in the bombing of the Shiite mosque; such operations have long been carried out by our intelligence services.
And the NY Times is hardly the opposition; they too beat the war drums before the invasion of Iraq.
-Daniel

It's not paranoia Daniel. Have we forgotten that two British SAS men were captured last Sept 18 in Basra while in a car disguised as Iraqis and carrying explosives. To this day I've yet to hear an explanation of what they were up to.

Of course you won't find out what they were up to because they were covert operatives doing the job they were paid to do - period! Military special operations have to be covert to get the job done.

The scary thought is what that job may have been.

Dear Daniel you said:

"...and it may not be paranoia to suspect an American or British hand in the bombing of the Shiite mosque; such operations have long been carried out by our intelligence services..."

I say:

It does not take much for people in the Middle East, who cannot understand the Western mind, and can only perceive us with their culturally alien 'eyes', to be misled. What you have said can easily be manipulated by those who have an agenda that is detrimental to us, and therefore detrimental to the world and it's economy.

Do you realize that you are committing treason? And by doing so, can be contributing not only to our downfall, but to the downfall of civilization on a whole.

So if you think that people in the world are starving now, just think what may happen if your words were actually to have an affect on others.

Fortunately, others are a little brighter than that.

Zenovia

Are there many postings in this thread about Christians in Iraq? Seems to be more about anything but right now. Does anyone have any news to share on the Christians please.

ICXC
NIKA

I happen to agree with Pavel Ivanovich. It seems that anything posted regarding the church and Christians in Iraq seems to always get diverted into a discussion on American politics which has nothing to do with Church News.

If you want to discuss American politics, please start a thread in Town Hall. This thread is about Iraqi Christians so please stay on topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

Well that is one of your most outrageous posts yet!
Unfortunately we have been informed that this thread has strayed too far off the original topic.
You want to argue this out over on Town Hall? I mean you just accused me of a felony!
And being stupid

-Daniel

First, I agree with Pavel and Father Anthony that the topic of Christians in Iraq can and should be discussed without always also entering into a debate about American politics.

Second, Zenovia (and anyone else) can make a legitimate case that Daniel has a bad case of paranoia for believing wholeheartedly that America is to be assumed guilty of the worst until someone proves otherwise. In the case discussed here it seems logical that American and British forces were infiltrating the enemy.

Zenovia is wrong to accuse Daniel of treason. Daniel has a right to refuse to see anything good about America. I don�t agree with him and consider him to wrong. His position, in any case, does not rise to treason and Zenovia accuses him falsely. I ask Zenovia to withdraw her accusation of treason.

Admin

Dear Admin-
Thank you.
I think.
To clarify: I see much good about America, but it is being eroded by the neoconservative ideologues. I feel about America like Chesterton felt about England: he loved "Little England" but hated Great Britain, and opposed her imperial adventures.
-Daniel

Dear Daniel,

I apologize for saying you are committing 'treason', though in times past, it probably would have been considered so. Gosh! How I mix up my time's and era's. As for saying you are 'stupid', I would never consider you that. They are your words, not mine.

You know my problem is, (or so I've been told), is that I am not able to make the Instant Graemlins, nor am I able to quote things on my computor. So in consequence, my posts tend to be a little hard. The humor I feel in some of the things I say, just doesn't seem to come through the way it should.

Zenovia

Dear Daniel,

I apologize for saying you are committing 'treason', though in times past, it probably would have been considered so. Gosh! How I mix up my time's and era's. As for saying you are 'stupid', I would never consider you that. They are your words, not mine.

But then again you did state the following:

"This is almost as bad as the time you contended that the murder rate in Iraq is not as bad as NYC in the 80s. When I linked to statistics showing that it is ten times worse, or more, you never even apologized for the false claim...."

In this you stated the wrong decade, and then changed it not to Iraq, but to Baghdad with it's lower population. You were basically calling me a liar and rather than apologizing to me, you said I was merely misinformed. In other words, if I was to take it as you did, you were calling me 'stupid'.

Zenovia

Now with apologies aside, let us discuss the topic at hand i.e. Iraqi Christians without any American political discussion. There is a place for discussing politics, but not in this part of the forum.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

I think I mentioned this once before during the time I was in Iraq, but my impression was that the presence of Iraqi Christians is being totally ignored by the Coalition Forces as if they didn't exist. This is probably to avoid either angering the Muslims or maybe to avoid causing trouble for the Christians by the Infidels appearing as liberating "crusaders." The chaplaincy at my camp offered a series of studies on the Biblical and Islamic history of Iraq but nothing about the Christian history of Iraq. It's like a conspiracy of silence. The American media is not much better.